Parachuting from Zeppelins

[centurion]

I had long been led to believe that Zeppelins did not carry parachutes. Reasons I have seen given for this can be summarised as:

1] This was an attempt to save weight and the crew were reluctant to take on board any excess load that would compromise the ships ability to climb rapidly out of danger

2] As the parachutes available were of the fixed cord variety (where the chute container is fastened to the airship and the 'chute is pulled out by the weight of the jumping airman) some members of the crew would be in positions were they would not be able to get to a parachute in time and jump (this would include riggers and patchers working inside the envelope and the gunners on top of the hull). It was considered invidious for some members of the crew (mainly the officers) to be in a position to bail out leaving the rest behind.

3] The German command were swine who would rather the airships carry extra bombs rather than escape facilities for the crew.

I had always thought that 3] was most likely to be pure wartime and post war propoganda and 2] was the most likely reason (it was for similar reasons that in the inter war years pilots and navigators requested Imperial Airways not to continue to issue flight crew with parachutes after an airliner bound for Zurich was put in the position where it looked as if it wouldn't be able to climb out of a mountain pass in a snowstorm and the crew had the choice of jumping, and abandoning the passangers and flight attendants, or sticking with what seemed to be a doomed aircraft. - They sayed with it and cleared the head of the pass by a few feet).

However I now note that on 22nd August 1914 a German Zeppelin (L8?) was badly damaged by French AA at Celle-Badonvillier and only just made it back to German territory. However 4 officers from the crew were captured by the French. This implies that they jumped and (unless L8 was flying very low indeed) had parachutes. Did some Zeppelins carry parachutes afer all? If so why is there no other record of crews saving themselves by this means (or are there?)

[Jempie]

Hallo!

As far I could make out, it did go that day about ZVIII!

This one came down into the Badonvielliers-forest and at theat moment was still occupied by the Franch .

My books gives no reports of crewmembers (officers) made POW, but mentions the crew realised to gain through the frontlines their own forces...

But that seen very soon after, the germans conquerred the territory their army dismantled the Zeppelin Z VIII.

Further , I don't think at that moment of the war, these zeppelins had parachutes on board!

That was later into WWI , I accept. I never studied this subject profundly.

There are indeed photos I have showing the machinegunnersplateform (2 machineguns) on top of airship showing fitted to it 2 parachutes...

Than on side of gondola's parachutes fitted too..

Some sources mentions indeed these were for the crew into the gondola's, in principal for officers, but ???

Some sources mentions indeed that sometimes these were not taken with to save on weight, and such...

The inside photo of the command gondola 1917, of the stranded L49, shows the presence of a parachute into this one..

By many occasions photos were published during WWI of crewmembers remains who jumped from high altitude to escape on the flames of their burning Zeppelin...

No parachutes having!

vbr

Jempie

[centurion]

Thanks Jempie

"The French Air Service War Chronology 1914 1918" specifically says thet the airship made it back across the German lines. Are you saying that this is incorrect?

[Adrian Roberts]

Centurion

The question of whether German airships carried parachutes is something I have wondered about myself. I have heard of no occasion when they were used, though my knowledge of any depth is limited to the well-known victims of the RFC/RNAS/RAF, rather than, say, ZVIII.

However, in the attached picture of the car of LZ93, do you think the bags on the outside are parachute packs? If it was a small blimp I would say it was ballast bags, but the large rigids needed much larger quantities of ballast which they carried internally.

As you say, the parachutes available at the time were static line types, and if an airship caught fire it would within ten seconds or so be falling too fast for there to be a sufficient difference in speed for anyone who jumped to have the parachute pulled from the pack by the descent. And there would be insufficient time for anyone to put on a parachute, especially in a cramped out-of-control ship.

R38 was apparently carrying parachutes, but no-one used them. The five who survived were lucky enough not to be killed or incapacitated when the ship hit the water; they did not use the parachutes. Jack Pritchard had parachuted from R34 when she arrived in the USA in order to organise the ground handling party (becoming the first person to arrive in America by air from Europe), and Air Commodore Maitland had made more parachute jumps from airships than anyone else, but neither of these men survived. Maitland's body was found holding the ballast toggles in an attempt to slow the descent so again we have the issue of a commander who could have parachuted not deserting his crew.

Adrian

[centurion]

As you say, the parachutes available at the time were static line types, and if an airship caught fire it would within ten seconds or so be falling too fast for there to be a sufficient difference in speed for anyone who jumped to have the parachute pulled from the pack by the descent. And there would be insufficient time for anyone to put on a parachute, especially in a cramped out-of-control ship.

Unless all the gas cells in a rigid airship were ruptured simultaeously then the rate of fall was quite slow (not unlike the sinking Titanic albeit not that slow). An account by a survivor of one of the Zeppelins brought down over England describes the fall rate as relatively slow.

[bob lembke]

I know next to nothing about the rigid airship war. But an answer immediately came to me. Unless catastrophically shot up or burned, I believe that damaged Zeppelins that still were close to neutral bouyancy often came down slowly, perhaps repeatedly bouncing off the ground and up into the air. Perhaps the airship came down once, or very close to the ground, and some crew jumped or fell out, either to save their skins, or in an attempt to further lighten the ship so that it had a chance to make German lines, or perhaps just by accident. Thus lightened, the airship was able to progress a bit further. I believe that the prevailing winds were west to east.

Almost completely Off Topic. I hope that I have the attention of some Zeppelin nuts. One day, in the 1970's, I believe, my father asked me to have lunch with him and a couple of his friends in Manhatten, New York City. The two friends turned out to be a man, the director of a German museum of flight (I have correspondence or a PC from it somewhere, but I do not recall the name of the museum; I think it was focused on early flight.), with whom my father kept up a correspondence; the other person was a young woman, rather tall, and perhaps somewhat attractive, I remember, and, if I remember it correctly, she was the grand-daughter of General Count von Zeppelin. (Zeppelin was one of the two oldest generals in the German WW I Army, both Ulan generals.) I don't know a lot about von Zeppelin, but he was so old that it is hard to imagine that she was his grand-daughter. Perhaps great grand-daughter? They were on some sort of a trip to New York, for some reason.

Anyone have a bead on the geneology of the Zeppelin family?

Bob Lembke

[centurion]

Whilst looking further into this matter I have come suspect a degree of confusion in various accounts - it would seem that there were two Zeppelins involved in the same sortie - LZ- 22 (Z VII) and LZ - 23 (Z VIII). According to at least one account BOTH were hit by French artillery and badly damaged. Z VII limped back into German territory but crashed on landing and was destroyed whilst Z VIII crashed in French territory and was looted by French Army units. However French records (Compt Redus) appear to show only one Zeppelin claimed as damaged (but escaped). Have the French conflated the two Zeppelins? Where did the four officers reported as captured come from ? Z VII or Z VIII? If the latter what happened to the rest of the crew?

[centurion]

R38 was apparently carrying parachutes, but no-one used them.

ZR-2 or R.38 included parachutes for the entire crew, including a special small parachute for the ship’s cat!

[Adrian Roberts]

ZR-2 or R.38 included parachutes for the entire crew, including a special small parachute for the ship’s cat!

Which still begs the question, why did nobody use them, not even the mechanics in the engine cars who presumably could have exited more easily than those in the hull? A static line parachute will work from 600 feet; the R38 was at about 1500 feet when the structural failure occurred. The answer must be to do with the rate of fall and the violence of the tumbling as she broke apart.

[Jempie]

Hello Centurion!

I just checked two other book today...no book on WWI history is a Bible!

But the oldest one is dating from 1923...from Georg Paul Neumann, "Die deutschen Lüftstreitkräfte im Weltkriege" ! Page 347...

In there is told that the ZVIII came down into NOMANSLAND!

The crew was attacked by a section of rench cavalry! Defended themselves , but outnumbered took the retreath!

After 11 hours , the book mentions, they all gained there own lines ...carrying with them very important informations on the French positions...

The French robbed all they could carry from the zeppelin , but soon the Germans conquerred the territory and with it what was left on the zeppelin...

I should now have to check what I have on postcrads on it...I remember "a flag" on a postacrd and even the remains of a gondola from one or another zeppelin on it which might be from this one (?) into a French museum at that time !War butin thus...

But so to see, the books I consulted , all tells : "the crew made it safely back to their own lines!"

It's also so there was so much gas escaped that they couldn't put it on fire!Inspite there were a lot of light flares suspended on the car ready to be used !

So that's it, I can only tell what my (old en newer) books tells me!

vbr

Jempie

[centurion]

Thanks Jempie

I have now seen four seperate accounts of the fate of ZVIII all different! I am wondering if details of ZVIII are being mixed up with those of ZVII which also suffered at the hands of the French artillery and crash landed at about the same time in the same general area