North Fusilier died Oct 17th 1918

[Jem2109]

I just wanted to mention a photo I've seen in case someone on here can place him. I'm nothing to do with the listing but I know I'd be overjoyed if I chanced on a piccy of any of mine... fingers crossed.

It says on the back 'JOINED H.M. FORCES JUNE 5TH 1916, DIED OCT 17TH 1918'

PS hope I haven't broken any rules, if I have i'm sorry!

[sotonmate]

Jem

Did you expect a reply identifying this man and his war ? Only a name is going to do that and then we could identify where and when he was killed and where he is buried, or commemorated if he has no known grave. It might be worth putting either the item number,or the picture here so that we can look for ourselves and try to fill in a bit of the story.

Was he a Northumberland Fusilier, did you mean ?

Best wishes

Sotonmate

[John_Hartley]

Was he a Northumberland Fusilier, did you mean ?

If so, then I'll offer odds of 9 to 1 on an ID.

John

[sandyford]

Jem

I think I saw this on ebay and I remember thinking that a general search on the CWGC site would be difficult because the search form allows us to specify a year and does not allow a search on regiment.

SDGW would be better for a search by date on the CD.

It would be good to identify this soldier. The date of his death is so near the armistice.

Kate

[shaymen]

SDGW would be better for a search by date on the CD.

Kate

If he was Northumberland Fusilier then SDGW gives the following for that date.

10 possibles (9-1 John, you had a look aswell )

2 Died of Wounds, 1 killed in action and the remaining 7 died (1 at Home)

Another point - 1 was a DCM winner - R.S.M. Henderson, Robert Cole

Glyn

After that whats the betting he's not NF. (probably 9-1...)

[Graham Stewart]

You can discount those with prefix numbers as all were enlisted late 1914, early 1915. Sgt Truscott was a regular with the 1st Bn. Plus with the N.F. part of SDGW you'll find that "Died" nine times out of ten is recording a man who is "Missing in Action".

26291 Birrell was possibly ex-D.L.I.

29674 Young died at home and was a 1916 enlistment.

204078 Carpenter was ex-2/4th Norfolks and a 1915 enlistment.

33793 Gillespie was an early 1916 enlistment.

46131 Millington was ex-KRRC among 1915 enlistments from other regiments.

66893 Pidd was a young 1916/17 conscript from the Training Reserve.

Graham.

[sandyford]

John & Glynn

The seller's description says he is a Northumberland Fusilier. The picture is good and he has no Serjeant or Corporal stripes but of course it could be a picture from early in the war and he was promoted later.

From the lack of NCO stripes it is probably not Batie, Henderson or Truscott. I think his D.C.M. would have been noted on the photo. From what Graham says about the enlistments it is perhaps not Carpenter, Greener or Millington.

So we have narrowed it down but unfortunately we probably won't be able to identify him.

Kate

[ian turner]

Jem

I think I saw this on ebay and I remember thinking that a general search on the CWGC site would be difficult because the search form allows us to specify a year and does not allow a search on regiment.

Kate

If you search CWGC for the name, year, service and nationality, then you can end up with a large list for that year, with many different regiments. HOWEVER, you can sort the results by regiment. Simply click on the column title for the regiment and hey-presto they are sorted by regiment. Scroll through until you find the regiment.....

Same applies for the other columns - rank, etc.

Ian

[Jem2109]

Yikes,

I posted on the very slim chance that someone might recognise him, or be able to match the dates listed. But it's really nice to see I wasn't the only wondering if he could be given a name .

take care.

[sandyford]

Ian

Thanks for the CWGC tip about sorting by regiment.

In this case, because we don't have a name, CWGC had too many possibles for 1918.

Jem

On this forum it is like throwing down the gauntlet to invite possible identification of a soldier. Having no name or number or address and even no readily visible picture doesn't necessarily deter us in discussing a picture.

Kate

[Jem2109]

Thanks Kate

I've put a bid in for the picture, I'm developing a little thing for NF and DLI whilst I've been researching my family tree and even if he remains nameless he'll be looked after by my son.

[Graham Stewart]

Jem2109,

Just a quickie - is there a photographers mark on the back of the photo, i.e. the firms name and address??

Graham.

[Jem2109]

Jem2109,

Just a quickie - is there a photographers mark on the back of the photo, i.e. the firms name and address??

Graham.

It doesn't say on the listing, Graham. If I win the auction I'll have a good look though and let you know. Fingers crossed for the next 2 days!

take care

[shaymen]

Any chance of a link to the item.....I can't find it !!!

Don't worry I'm not going to bid against you

Glyn

[Jem2109]

lol Glyn.

I can't do short links so here's the item no. 230167749297

take care

[shaymen]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...97%2B%26fvi%3D1

Does not look very old.

[Amy]

I’m doing  go family tree and Robert Cole Henderson was a family member , I’ve got info on him but no pictures any help out there ? 

[Matlock1418]

Amy, Welcome to GWF.

Photos are a bit of a Holy Grail [and commonly just/almost as rare].  Single soldier photos were most typically a private purchase item.  Rare for official military photos, unless a particularly high rank or high gallantry/service medal award.

Pension records at the Western Front Association / Fold3 have his widow living at 3 Tweedy St., Cowpen, Blythe, 28.4.19 [as later per CWGC https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/658288/r-c-henderson] with four children and that she remarried to become Mrs EVANS [same address] - to, it rather looks like, Pte EVANS, 6225, NF

We can also see she seems to have got £9, 4.5.18 [a Grant of for urgent expensed associated with his death] - commonly used for a newspaper insert(s)/death notice(s) shortly after his death / shortly after payment

Your best bet it probably to try a local newspaper - throughout all his service period [as photos were not potentially only used for deaths but also for other significant events etc.] - potentially at the British Newspaper Archive or via Find my Past or at a local historical archive/centre

Wishing you good fortune.

M

Edited 17 April by Matlock1418
typo

[Amy]

Thanks for that , he was awarded a watch and medal off the king for his bravery -and there is a photo somewhere but I’ve tried to locate it but not doing very well . 

[Matlock1418]

On 06/09/2007 at 18:07, shaymen said:

Another point - 1 was a DCM winner - R.S.M. Henderson, Robert Cole

18 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

high gallantry/service medal award.

6 minutes ago, Amy said:

he was awarded a watch and medal off the king for his bravery

A Distinguished Conduct Medal [DCM] could easily fit that scenario.

Name and mention(s) of medal and watch could esily reach publication in a local newspaper - hopefully with a photo!

[Just got to find it/them - easily said, potentially harder to do!!!  Sorry I don't suitably subscribe]

M

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

Pension records at the Western Front Association / Fold3

Amy, did you know he sadly died of Infective Endocarditis contracted on active service? - the main dependant's pension index card is additionally very informative if you can see/read and know how to further interpret it [I can help with this if necessary].

M

Edited 17 April by Matlock1418
add

[Amy]

Thanks very much for your help much appreciated x 

[Eoin Gallacher]

His DCM citation-

His grave (find a grave) Cowpen Cemetery - (quite the colour) https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/59348928/r-c-henderson

Eoin

Edited 18 April by Eoin Gallacher

[Matlock1418]

9 hours ago, Amy said:

Thanks very much for your help much appreciated x

That's a bit ambiguous - but as you are a new member, and I particularly like to encourage and develop new members' enthusiasm, knowledge and interests especially in a potentially lesser-known field of the GW, I will plough on for you [ my apologies if you already know all this below  I suppose it might also help another member instead - well I hope so] ...

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

Much is probably self-explanatory but a few interpretations for you and to help avoid potential mis-interpretations:

Of course, there was a sad aftermath - his widow, Hannah, made an initial claim for a war pension for herself and for a pension allowance(s) for her children under the prevailing Royal Warrant [which in this case would initially have been the 1918 RW] - Article 11 [widow] and Article 12 [child(ren)]. .  There are three Pension Index Cards at the Western Front Association/Fold3 [unfortunately a rather less commonly visited source of info] - this is probably the most informative

This pension index card was in the soldier’s name and there are two other briefer cards in the widow’s name so they could be cross-referenced/accessed.  These came from/lead to a ledger page(s) via the claim case references and then to an awards file. Unfortunately, the initial ledger appears lost [probably destroyed] and the awards file probably deliberately destroyed once its use was passed [as was the common case]

The original Case No. 6201 claim reference [was possibly later replaced by a later Ministry of Pensions one - but we can't see this occurring here]

Form 104-88 received  = Death notification of a married man sent from the man’s Record Office to the War Office.

Date of notification of death: It is rather unclear as to whom this notification was being made but one might think it is likely to his widow

Form 104-76 received = Declaration made by the Widow of a Soldier in support of claim to pension for herself and children

Date of birth: 17.9.90 = his widow’s - required because her pension could be age-related/supplemented i

The standard pension that would have been initially proposed for his widow was not implemented and instead because of remarriage only that for her children - there usually was an approx. six-month gap between death and paying of a pension [to allow six months for any presumption of death and for calculation] - in the meantime standard Separation Allowances continued to be paid – so, unlike what many observers think when they first see such a card, there usually was not a complete absence of monies in the intervening period]. 

I am not particularly familiar with Warrant Officers' pensions [there were so many more Privates' claims!] and so I am more challenged to definitively give the widow's pension which would have been paid according to her late husband's rank, but I fairly confidently believe under the1918 RW she could potentially/likely have been eligible for 42/6 pw for the <45y widow of a pension class 1 WO/RSM.  Instead we can only see universal increments of 6/8 [80d], 5/- [60d], 4/2 [50d] & 4/2 [50d] = 20/- pw clearly shown as being awarded for the children.  The rounded figures in pence for the children make you wonder if those figures really were the cost of raising a child(ren) or if they just made things simpler for the pension clerks [I suspect the latter]. 

We can see that his widow remarried [becoming Mrs EVANS] at which point her pension would have ceased and she got a one-off lump-sum re-marriage gratuity bounty [typically one years' worth of pension].  It does seem to me a little unusual for the widow of a RSM to marry a Pte - and so quickly ... you may better know the circumstances.  The children's allowances would continue to be paid to her.

The child(ren)'s allowance(s) were paid to their mother, typically until they reached 16 when such payments ceased [occasionally up to 21 if they were in some form of further vocational training or sometimes if they had impairment/disability] - then the child(ren) would certainly be expected to go out to work to earn their keep. Or paid until the earlier death of a child. Hence their recorded dates.

She also got £9 Grant - as was usual this was relatively quickly awarded, [£5 plus £1, £1, £1 & £1] = a grant to cover urgent expenses arising from her husband's death - often for mourning dress [though not worn much at that time of the war], sometimes for moving home [typically downsizing as she would no longer be expected to keep a home in the same level of comfort as her husband might have expected had he returned!] - commonly used for local newspaper death notice inserts [these quite often had a photo = so a good place to search, e.g at British Newspaper Archive or through Find my Past]

S.A. means Separation Allowance - A portion of a soldier's pay which was matched by the government and sent to his dependants to make sure they were not left destitute while he was on active service.  SA were often slightly more generous than pensions and children’s allowances because a wife had to maintain a home in the same level of comfort as before ready for her husband’s return whilst a widow did not have such a need and costs – after all, apparently, she could then cut back and down-size her home!  Typically, the No. for whom SA is paid on the card reflected the number of children – as we can see here, 4.  It is interesting to note SA to 30.3.19 i.e. ceasing before the childrens' pension allowances were started [it's a bit unusual for SA to have ceased early and to have had a gap - the date might reflect the date of his widow's remarriage]

50F is Form 50F used to cease the Separation Allowance and start the pension.

N/S is thought to potentially mean 'Non-Standard’, 'Not Simple' or something like that i.e. special treatment/calculation likely required.

I think the W.B.A.5978 and MN9921 were possibly certificate identity numbers to allow for the collection of the children's pension allowances from a Post Office - but I am a bit more cautious about that.

DEAD, 1932, indicates the claim became dead eventually - probably likely because her youngest child, Robert Cole HENDERSON jnr., had reached 16 that year.

The printer's marks at the bottom show the printing date [1/18] and large number [batch of 50,000] of these index cards sadly required to be used to help manually administer pensions using ledgers and files [by a small army of pension clerks, most of them female - No computers in those days!].

There a few other pensions admin annotations but probably not now of much significance really.

... I hope of interest/value to you.

Images of the other PIC available by subscription at the Western Front Association https://www.westernfrontassociation.com [highly recommended since for relatively low cost membership the WFA site offers good insight into pensions and pension records and it offers so very much more as well - I think it is great value] and/or by subscription to Fold3.

His widow would later typically get the balance of her late husband’s pay/’Effects’ and a War Gratuity [based on rank and the length of his War Service] – possibly through a soldier’s Will [which I have not located] or as NoK - But surely those, like her potential pension & allowances wouldn’t have really made up for the loss of a husband and father [perhaps why she remarried so quickly??] – See the Army’s Register of Soldiers’ Effects [RoSE - A financial ledger - From the National Army Museum now typically available via Ancestry].  Another member may perhaps offer this for the thread ??

M

16 minutes ago, Eoin Gallacher said:

His DCM citation-

 

  So much easier to now to find the LG entry https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30512/supplement/1735

M

Edited 18 April by Matlock1418

[Amy]

Thankyou so much , very helpful information 😊