MikeS0000 Posted 12 August , 2007 Share Posted 12 August , 2007 I had the pleasure of visiting the Curtiss Museum in Hammondsport, NY last week. There is a very nice JN-4 displayed, as well as a good deal of great war material. Among the material was a Lewis Gun. I wondered is the Hythe Camera Gun was ever used with the JN-4, during or after the war. I spoke with the curator and he was interested in displying the example I have, but I'm not sure it is correct. So..., wondered if anyone may have knowledge or seen a photo of the Hythe/JN-4 combination. Couple of sad photos from the museum follow. - Best regards! MikeS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeS0000 Posted 12 August , 2007 Author Share Posted 12 August , 2007 Aircraft Machine Guns... JN-4... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhill Posted 12 August , 2007 Share Posted 12 August , 2007 There are two photos on-line at the Canadian Archives site, here , and here . The captions read something like: "R.F.C. Canada. Camera Gun on Curtiss JN-4, School of Aerial Gunnery, Beamsville Camp, Ont., 1918. " Of course, the experts tell us that Canadian and U.S. JN-4's were actually different aeroplanes, but for this purpose they should be the same. I do not believe any JN-4 aeroplanes served in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeS0000 Posted 13 August , 2007 Author Share Posted 13 August , 2007 There are two photos on-line at the Canadian Archives site, here , and here . The captions read something like: "R.F.C. Canada. Camera Gun on Curtiss JN-4, School of Aerial Gunnery, Beamsville Camp, Ont., 1918. " Of course, the experts tell us that Canadian and U.S. JN-4's were actually different aeroplanes, but for this purpose they should be the same. I do not believe any JN-4 aeroplanes served in Europe. Hello James and thank you very much for the links to the photos and answering my question. I thought they must have been used together, but had not seen any reference or photo to confirm. I'll order some prints and the set should display nicely with the plane. Best regards! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitzee Posted 13 August , 2007 Share Posted 13 August , 2007 Mike How exactly did the"camera gun" work? My guess is, when the trigger was pressed, it took pictures to document the accuracy of where the bullets would have hit on the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 13 August , 2007 Share Posted 13 August , 2007 I do not believe any JN-4 aeroplanes served in Europe. I think that both the RFC and RNAS used imported Curtiss JN-4s as trainers in the United Kingdom. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickdavis Posted 13 August , 2007 Share Posted 13 August , 2007 Both the RNAS and RFC made considerable use of the Curtiss JN3 and JN4. The RNAS was quick off the mark and ordered 6 Curtiss biplanes in 1914 that seem to have been a version of the Curtiss N. That service placed a further order for 200 in March 1915 (79 JN3 and 121 JN4), as well as one for 100 Curtiss R2s. There was another small order for 12 JN3s, which was fulfilled, and another for 50 JN4s, which wasn't. Most, both JN3 and JN4 had the Curtiss OX-2 engine. Most were built in Canada, at Toronto. The JN3s must have been pretty naff because they were with drawn from service, in small batches, and delivered to Fairey for conversion to JN3 (Improved) configuration. In RNAS service, the two types were, with the odd exception, operated by the training stations in England and at Vendome, in France. They had just about disappeared from service by the end of 1917. The RFC reached an agreement with the Admiralty during mid 1915 to draw on RNAS stocks of JN3s. They were handed over in small batches but were not regarded as being satisfactory for training purposes until extensively modified. 11 RS at Northolt, 16 RS at Beaulieu and 36 RS at Beverly were the main operators, although small numbers were issued to other Reserve Squadrons, as well as to service squadrons which were 'working up' - 17, 22, 23 and 24 Sqns at Gosport and Hounslow were the main recipients but even the famous 56 Sqn had a good number (5639, A624, A1256, A1257, A4056, A4060, A5492, A5493, A5494, A5496) while at London Colney and operated them alongside BE2cs and BE2es until its SE5 equipment became available. An improved JN3 was produced in Canada, under the designation JN4 but this became the JN4 (Can) and served with the RFC's Training Squadrons and School of Aerial Gunnery in that country, some being detached to the USA when the 1917/18 winter arrived. The JN4A was also produced in Canada for the RFC - 50 were shipped to England and the other 150 were retained for the Canadian Training Squadrons. Those that arrived in England saw service mainly with 11 TS at Spittlegate, 16 TS at Beaulieu and 42 TS at Hounslow. Some of the last in service in England were with 1 TDS at Stamford at the end of 1917. The Canadian based machines soldiered on until the end of the war. Camera guns were fitted to Canadian machines with the SAF and, at least, one RNAS JN3 was fitted with a Lewis gun armament - strange for such an un-warlike aeroplane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeS0000 Posted 14 August , 2007 Author Share Posted 14 August , 2007 Mike How exactly did the"camera gun" work? My guess is, when the trigger was pressed, it took pictures to document the accuracy of where the bullets would have hit on the target. Many thanks to all for the excellent information! fitzee - The camera gun itself is a very interesting piece of equipment. In form and weight it is modeled after the original Lewis Gun (photo below for reference). The box contains the film and a glass reticle that has a 'target' imprinted on it. When the trainee 'fires' the gun at a target plane the reticle's grid is imprinted on the film with the photo of the target ed plane. The target plane appears in the developed photo, hopefully within the imprint of the reticle's target. In addition, the trainee was supposed to change the magazine (in flight) after each shot. There is a unique pin that pierces the film each time the magazine is changed. If a photo appears without the 'pinhole' it indicates the magazine was not changed. "Can't get away with anything!" At the end of a flight the film is developed and a trainer would review the results with the gunner. There are calculations that determine the angle, range, etc. of the shot. A short and simple discourse, but hope it is interesting. I was fortunate to obtain an actual training manual from the US Air Service, 1919. Pretty fragile and quite complicated! - Best regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeS0000 Posted 14 August , 2007 Author Share Posted 14 August , 2007 Incidentally, this particular example is stamped on the grip, "R.F.C. / 1" Any ideas as to what the "1" may indicate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitzee Posted 18 August , 2007 Share Posted 18 August , 2007 Mike Thanks for that. A facinating piece of equipment that I had never heard of. It would be great for the museum to display it along with some examples of actual photos taken with a Hythe gun camera, if any still exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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