British Shells

[Justin Moretti]

Okay, this may or may not be completely on-topic, and if not I apologise.

I've been reading DK Brown's "Warrior to Dreadnought" - and while many of the ships described obviously did not serve in WW1, quite a few (the late Victorian/early Edwardian cruisers and destroyers, Dreadnought herself, many of the pre-Dreadnoughts, and even one 19th Century Royal Sovereign class battleship) did.

I have seen all sorts of ammunition types - powder-filled, common, Lyddite, AP, capped, chilled (Palliser) - described, particularly for the main armament of capital ships. I've been having a bit of trouble trying to work out which of these are, or might be, names for the same thing, which are different things, and what actually is inside some of them.

Can anyone please give me, or link me to, an appropriate summary?

Also, does anyone know of a good book on British naval ordnance - guns, projectiles and even mountings - covering the late Victorian to Edwardian era, which goes into substantial technical detail and development history (i.e. similar to that supplied in DK Brown's books)? Or should I, with exams rapidly approaching their end, consider trying to write it myself? (I am becoming obsessed, for some reason, with the 9.2 inch gun; and cannot explain why... )

Thanks a bunch.

[Hoplophile]

The book that will satisfy most of your hoplophile requirements is the Treatise on Ammunition, which was recently replublished by the Naval and Military Press. Don't be put off by the fact that it was originally issued by the War Office. It contains details on naval ammunition as well as propellants, fuzes and shells of the military persuasion.

Back issues of naval annuals (Jane's and Brassey's come to mind) often had articles on the development of various types of ammunition, as well as handy charts that show the various types of ordnance in service. Some of these are beginnng to appear on Google Books.

[taucher]

Maybe this will be of some help.

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/stephen.johnson/arms/

greets

[ionia]

The best contemporary guide to guns of the period is Captain H. Garbett's "Naval Gunnery", London, 1897. For a more general exposition of the subject see Peter Padfield's "Guns at Sea", which is more easily obtainable.

N.J.M. Campbell wrote a series of sixteen articles on "British Naval Guns 1880-1945" published in "Warship" magazine between 1981 and 1985. The various marks of the 9.2" gun are covered in "Warship" Nos. 23 and 24 (1982).

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Warrior to Dreadnought is a useful insight into the development of the older ships (which were used extensively for defence in depth, in WWI and disasterously against von Spee) and the lack of development in gunnery. For example in 1900 the Navy were still practising at ranges below that of a Mauser rifle, let alone the Boer 'Long Toms' and 4.7" guns the RN had landed in South Africa. The reports on the Bombardment of Alexandria 1882 show why Jackie Fisher and AK Wilson VC should have been keel hauled! They saw unexploded shells in a powder magazine and failed to ask regularly after that: "are our shells any ****** good yet?"

The official Gunnery Manuals, particularly the 1915 Gunnery Manual are useful to read if you can get access to any. That shows why Jelecoe should have joined Fisher and Wilson! Follow up with reading Warrior to Dreadnought with DK Brown's Grand Fleet to get fully on topic.

[Justin Moretti]

I've got "Grand Fleet." Does anyone know if there is a follow-up book to that?

(Slightly OT, have also got "Birth of the Battleship" by John Beeler, detailing the mid-Victorian-era Navy, and "The First Destroyers" by David Lyon, which covers the Turtlebacks, some of which served in WW1 and a few of which made it through.)

The practice of failing to ask the right technological questions is covered very well in the Jellicoe section of Barnett's "The Swordbearers", and the underlying anti-intellectual rot is covered even better by Gordon's "The Rules of the Game". Scary.

Do you know where I might find back issues of Warship magazine?

[per ardua per mare per terram]

He started with Before the Ironclad

Nelson to Vanguard is the follow up, it came out last year in paperback.

Warship magazine: the maritime museums, British library, Imperial War Museum. If you know specific pages for an article you can request it through your library from the British Library. To buy, try the publisher, ebay.

[Justin Moretti]

"Warship" is also the title of two hardcover books I found in a local library, that were 1999/00 and 2005 annuals; the former was edited by Antony Preston and the latter (sadly) carried his obituary. Are these the same thing?

Thanks for the advice re DK Brown. I now have all but "Before the Ironclads", and have ordered that through Amazon. I found "Warrior to Dreadnought" and "Grand Fleet" to be excellent, and good for hours of reading and re-reading. The only possible criticism is that it is sometimes difficult to keep track of all the ship types, as not all the ships named are illustrated, and some of those not very clearly with regard to armament placements (too many peacetime awnings strung over quarterdecks etc.). (On the other hand, some of the illustrations are just brilliant.) Archibald's "The Fighting Ship in the Royal Navy", with its at-a-glance line drawings and appended basic stats, is a big help here, even if it is very short on details (and wrong on quite a few).

Get the hardcovers; my softcover of "Nelson to Vanguard" arrived somewhat bent and creased in the middle, and is smaller than the others, so doesn't match. Its only low point was that it gave very little space to the 1939 "Lion" class battleships, and didn't go into anywhere near as much detail on inter-war projects as I'd thought it would (basic stats are given, but no drawings as with e.g. cruiser projects in "Grand Fleet").

[John(txic)]

"Warship" is also the title of two hardcover books I found in a local library, that were 1999/00 and 2005 annuals; the former was edited by Antony Preston and the latter (sadly) carried his obituary. Are these the same thing?

They are indeed, Justin. Originally, the 4 softback releases each year were bundled into a hardback annual. However, when the quarterly ceased publication (at about No. 49 or so) the hardback annual continued.

eBay enabled me to complete my collection of the individual softbacks, so you may try there with some success (if you are patient).

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Justin I think that he says that he has deliberately gone for non standard illustrations. He is writing from a designers point of view not the weoponary and armour. He is also supplimenting books that have already covered the ground in picturing the ships like Jane's Fighting Ships and Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships, which also show armament placements,

There weren't a lot of inter-war projects between 1922-35 so there wasn't much to be put in, most of what there was is covered in Grand Fleet. As with everything he is reliant on what survives, and I understand that there is very little for the Lion project.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

The pictures also reflect the times, as most were taken in peace you get peace time conditions. On topic this also reflects the attitude of the Navy leading up to WWI, when the guns were rarely fired for gunnery practice.

It is interesting to read the accounts of South Africa and the 6", 4.7" and 12 pounders guns deployed there and ranges achieved (hits at over 16,500 yards) then look at the practice ranges and the ranges they were testing armour at.

Oh and to get this even more on topic: the 6" (aprox 150mm) and 4.7" were heavier guns than any the BEF took with them to France in 1914.