MEDALS AS FASHION ACCESSORIES

[Max]

Also I do not see necessarily Max supporting you, because he never developed own arguments.

I am afraid that on this subject I am not able to develop an argument that is more eloquent than mass graves and the gates of Dachau and Auschwitz.

Andy

[Dragon]

Dear David and Egbert

I have been reading the last few exchanges with interest. I want to say that I feel honoured that both of you felt that you could share parts of your family’s past in threads elsewhere in the Forum; and both stories moved me in a way that reading accounts in a book could not, because they were stories recounted by people to whom I could put something of a personality because I have read other messages which you have posted.

Thank you both for answering the question which I would have skirted round had I met you face to face: the question, ‘What happened…?’ Both of you described episodes in a sincere, unsensational style; indeed, there was no need for sensation because the events are stark enough in themselves. The stories have found their way into a little niche in my mind and they will stay hauntingly there so I can look at them from time to time. You have both changed my thinking in a little way.

Egbert, during the last War there was a prisoner-of-war camp in the locality where I live and where my mother’s family had farms. On Sunday afternoons, various of my relatives used to invite small groups of young captured Germans for afternoon tea, then they took them to chapel. It didn’t much matter that they were the enemy; they were still young men far from their families and my mother’s family could give them a little bit of home-life, good food and friendship every Sunday in English farmhouses. Some of them kept in touch long after the war was over and (born long after the war) I grew up hearing tales of this or that young German person. I think many British people were, and are, more capable of seeing the human stories behind the political fronts than some public images would have us believe.

Gwyn

[Stephen White]

I am afraid that on this subject I am not able to develop an argument that is more eloquent than mass graves and the gates of Dachau and Auschwitz.

Andy

quite right.but i don't quite understand how a question about Medals as Fashion accessories developed in to this arguement !!.ok i chose a bad example to illustrate my point and i apologised for it. the bravery on both sides of the ordinary soldier was in equal measure,and it was the direspect to these people i was trying to highlight (NOT the Adolf Eichman's of this world). Steven

[Ski]

This is a subject that really makes my blood boil!

I believe the only people that should be wearing medals are the owners, and when i say the owners i mean the people who were awarded them.

I say this because the only people who really know the true value of those medals are the people who were awarded them, they know how hard they worked or didn't work and the sacrifices that they made. I obviously extend this to the next of kin who lost loved ones through war.

Besides, with the price of medals today, its seems pretty expensive just to be a fashion victim!

Ski

[Matt Dixon]

Having read this thread with some interest I am reminded of an incident when I was a Police officer and arrested a charming young man for incitement of racial hatred. He was parading the streets handing out right wing literature and was sporting an SS Death's Head badge and an Iron Cross 1st class (both of which were clearly on display, as was the t-shirt he had on with a picture of Adolf Hitler on it)

This man had no actual knowledge of what these badges symbolised, and was very much wearing them as part of his ignorance of their symbolism. I could be wrong but I would suspect that very few, if any, of the young people that have been seen wearing these medals actually have the first clue about what they are, or the history that goes with them.

The abhorrence associated with Nazism is still very much in place to day and even well meaning collectors can be accused of harbouring right wing beliefs, simply because of their choice of collection. I have a good friend who is as un-political as they come, but has a deep rooted interest in the 3rd Reich, not because he sympathises, but that is his equivilant of us on the Forum and the Great War.

I think the problem comes with the perception that wearing of such decorations produces. If a young boy or girl were to wear their Grandad's Iron Cross to a remembrance service it would not automatically make them sympathisers with Nazism or anything that it stands for. Much of the problems with this topic come from ignorance (as demonstrated by the chap who was arrested)

I fully understand that this is an emotive topic, and I am not certain that I can add much to it, but having visited Auschwitz, it is hard to understand why someone like Eichmann could be awarded a medal that was won by other men for performing feats of bravery. It would seem, and I stress this is simply my own opinion, to denegrate the achievements of many brave Germans, who actually deserved to win one!

It has been well documented throughout this thread that Iron Crosses were not simply awarded "for turning up on the day" (by this I mean they were supposed to be medals for bravery). Regardless of whether these men were "the enemy" they still suffered the same privations and hardships, and they displayed bravery and courage, in order that they were awarded such medals.

The wearing of medals as fashion accessories is insulting to the memory of the men and women who actually earned them. Keep them with the family or in a museum, not hanging on a jacket in a misguided attempt to look "cool".

[Stephen White]

MattDixon. Brilliant !! everything i've been TRYING to say.Thank You. Steven

[Muerrisch]

even if the people awarding the "iron cross" where suspect the receipiant would have been a soldier doing his job,very much like our own troops.

What, like Adolf "I was only doing my job" Eichmann, you mean, who "won" the iron cross in 1944 for sucessfully organising the deportation of three quarters of a million Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz?

Come on, I think this remark is very unfair! What about Bomber Harris who was praised (he must have got some medals for that too I think) for the bombing of German towns in which thousands of innocent people died?

I find this remark a bit over the edge.

I arrive late in this thread, which is obviously a delicate and troubling subject, both superficially [the wearing of medals by the non-entitled] and more profoundly, the "winners write the history and get the good medals" argument.

I would have kept my head down but for the appearance of Bomber Harris in the same posting as an unmentionable Nazi.

There can surely be no moral equivalence: my father was RAF, he defended Coventry and other cities and when, as a REACTION, ["they have sown the wind, they shall reap the whirlwind"] Harris sent the Lancaster force off night after night, my father felt justice was being served, whilst grieving for the dead.

That was then, and now is now. I have spent some of the best [13] years of my life in Germany, and regularly visit the Black Forest and Austria. I count many Germans as my friends, and love the country. But "The past is another country. They do things differently there". It helps neither country mend its wounds by abusing any military person of any alliance unless guilt is clear. For many in this country, Bomber Harris and his men [60,000 or so died over Germany] have nothing to be guilty about. Can the same be said for the unspeakable Nazi and his like?

[Guest edthemed]

I recall a story in the Calgary Media recently where a wearer of his fathers medals was arrested for wearing said medals, the debate after that arrest went on for some time, mainly as the wearer was quite young, anybody else hear of it ?

Eddy

[Frank_East]

Just for the record.

Bomber Command and Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Harris.

Harris was never recognised for his contribution to the winning of the war in Western Europe by the award of any honour or decoration.

Apart from being promoted to Marshal of the Royal Air Force on 1 January 1946 he was largely forgotten. A memorial to him exists in London. In the opinion of many he has been unjustly vilified because of the consequences of the strategic bombing of Germany.

The duration of wartime Bomber Command operations were not recognised as a campaign so there will never be a case of wearing a B.C. campaign medal as a fashion accessory.

This is not the thread to discuss strategic bombing of Germany but one fact illustrates the effectiveness of the bombing offensive.The identification of 17 oil refineries /synthetic oil plants by the Ministry of Economic Warfare in 1941 led to the continual bombing of the plants by Bomber Command by night and the USAAF by day as they came into the war. By Christmas 1944 the Luffewaffe effectiveness was severely reduced by lack of fuel for training pilots and the means to sustain air defensive measures over the German heartland both East and West.

Regards

Frank East

[Kate Wills]

I have received several messages expressing concern about some of the contributions to this thread.

Some time ago, a poll was conducted on the inclusion of WW2 in this Forum. The vote was overwhelmingly against, and the foregoing debate illustrates some of the reasons why the votes were cast that way. Understandable emotions have been aroused; however, it seems that the participants here are not so very far apart in their views as the heated exchanges might imply.

Steven made an interesting observation regarding medals being worn as modern fashion accessories. I have not seen this so far. Has anyone else?

[Guest Jeff Floyd]

The fashion statement pops up on this side of the pond periodically (usually short-lived).

Of course, the wearing of US medals by those not entitled to them is a federal offense (as is wearing of medals of allied nations - although the law doesn't specify whether that means "now allied" or "allied at the time of the award").

Most of the wearers are ignorant of the law and the background of the medals. They are usually puzzled when I point out that the wear is a criminal act.

It's stupid and disrespectful in the extreme, but not something that won't be taken care of by a gentle reminder and explanation.

To quickly touch the Iron Cross issue - in 1957, Germany introduced a version of the 1939 Iron Cross with the swastika replaced by oak leaves. This was to be worn by Wehrmacht veterans serving in the Bundeswehr. A simple solution.

[Dragon]

medals being worn as modern fashion accessories. I have not seen this so far. Has anyone else?

No, never. Not even in Manchester, which is apparently now acknowledged to be Britain's second city.

Gwyn

[David_Bluestein]

I would like to relate a story, in keeping with the original spirit of this thread:

When I was in high school, and about 17 years of age medals were fairly popular as part of fashion apparel (mid 80's). I was never sure why?

I remember a girl came to science class wearing a British Victory Medal 1914-19, pinned to her leather jacket. I was by this time collecting medals, and reading heavily on the Great War. She of course had no idea what significance this 'shiny gold medal' had, or what it actually was. The thought of the recipient's memory being lost to this 'no-mind' was too much for me to bare...so I offered her my lunch money in exchange, and we had a deal!

This will go down in my history as the most unusual medal purchase of my career! I am happy to report that this Victory Medal was subsequently given a respectful home in my collection, where it has continued to be treasured to this day.

David

(Very refreshing no to be posting on Nazi's today!!!)

[Tim Birch]

The wearing of medals as a fashion accessory is not a new cult amongst the young. I was a teenager during the late 1950s and early 60's. At that time there was a movement amongst teenagers for wearing bits of military surplus uniform including pilots wings, and RAF great coats with the brass buttons badges still on them.

My father was still a serving RAF Officer at the time who had fought through the War, and I remember him being outraged at seeing youngsters in these bits of uniform. Allthough I didn't wear these items myself, I remember at the time I considered him to be a bit of a fuddy duddy "square", and couldn't really understand why he got so outraged. It was only later when I learn't more about his war time experiences and the dozens of friends he had lost on Ops, that I began to realise why he found this mis-use of the uniform he wore with pride so disrespectful.

Tim

[Stephen White]

medals being worn as modern fashion accessories. I have not seen this so far. Has anyone else?

No, never. Not even in Manchester, which is apparently now acknowledged to be Britain's second city.

Gwyn

i may live in telford,but i'm was born and bought up in THE second city Birmingham !!. i've not seen teenagers in birmingham wearing any medals i grant you.but in Telford they are not to common yet.but there's enough of them to be noticed.judging by their appearance i guess they might be fans of everyone's favorite funster Marilyn Manson !! steven

[christine liava'a]

why not approach the wearers and congratulate them on their longevity, and ask what they did in the war?!

[Stephen White]

why not approach the wearers and congratulate them on their longevity, and ask what they did in the war?!

WHAT !! approach something that looks like Marilyn Manson no fear.don't think they'd understand the question or the sarcasm even if i did !!. Steve

[Dragon]

i may live in telford,but i'm was born and bought up in THE second city Birmingham !!.

I’m sorry, Steven, but you are hundreds of years out of date!!

Manchester, long known to be almost the most happening city in the entire universe, is now officially Britain’s second city. See:

http://society.guardian.co.uk/regeneration...,791415,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2253035.stm

I can give you two million other references, but two will do for a start.

As Ian Brown said, ‘Manchester has everything except a beach.’

And…

'Manchester is more than a city...it is a brand' (The Observer)

'One of the most dynamic and exciting cities in Europe' (Tony Blair)

'Manchester is the only English city which can look London in the face, not merely as a regional capital, but as a rival version of how men should live in a community' (A J P Taylor)

'The Age of Ruins is past, Have you seen Manchester? Manchester is as great a human exploit as Athens' (Disraeli)

'The thing about Manchester is...it all comes from here' (Noel Gallagher)

'The Commonwealth Games are the climax of Manchester's civic renaissance' (The Times)

'Una de las ciudades mas estimulantes del Reino Unido'

(One of the most dynamic cities of the United Kingdom) (El Pais)

Just off to rummage around and find my Eric Cantona tee-shirt.

Gwyn

[Graeme Fisher]

Sorry, Gwyn, I'm with Steven on this one.

Birmingham is England's second city.

And quoting old Monobrow Gallagher as some sort of validation is unthinkable!

(Get better soon, Ozzy......)

Graeme

[Terry_Reeves]

That's allright as spin goes Gwyn, but does it have:

More canals than Venice?

The International Conference Centre?

The National Exhibition Centre?

The National Indoor Arena?

The Centre for First World War Studies?

Anyway, a recommendation from the likes of Noel Gallagher is surely the kiss of death.

Terry Reeves

[Muerrisch]

No one is arguing about UK's premier city, I note. It is obviously MK.

[Tim Birch]

Manchester like London can boast to be a sea port. Birmingham can't.

Or has the ship canal clogged up through lack of use??

Tim

[Dragon]

I just knew someone was going to disagree with me. Fortunately, I have the teeshirt which provides the definitive answer.

“mais personne ne peut nier qu’ici, derrière les fenêtres de la banlieue de Manchester, survit un amour insense pour le football, la fête et la musique”, says Eric Cantona on my teeshirt and he knew what he was talking about.

You just have to accept that Manchester is the rock’n’goal capital of the planet and Birmingham… well, I suppose it has Spaghetti Junction.

And MK the premier city? Well, according to today's Guardian it looks as if it’s about to make an advance on Aylesbury. Next stop London. I’ve learned something, though: I didn’t think those cows you keep talking about were real until I saw their portrait on today’s page 3. I mean, I know they’re not real, but real in a surreal sort of reality.

Hm.

Gwyn

[Kate Wills]

And MK the premier city? ...not real, but real in a surreal sort of reality.

...and that is about as eloquent as you can get with MK.

Gwyn, I'm sure if TS Eliot had wandered the roundabouts of MK he would have come up with something like this.

And talking about wandering...

Anyone wishing to continue the second city debate is invited to attend a new thread in Utterly.

(voices off)...without deviation, hestitation or repetition.

Medals as fashion accesories...

[John_Hartley]

Terry - there may well be a city with more canals than Venice, but somehow you never hear of that Italian city being referred to as the Birmingham of the South.

Before disappearing off to "Utterly" to continue the debate, I offer Pals the following quotation from Lt General Sir James Willcocks, in the introduction tot he history of the first City Brigade, Manchester Regiment:-

"Of this Regiment, it may be said once for all that none more devoted and none more valiant has passed in this war through the valley of the Shadow of Death."

And from the same book, quoting Sir Ian Hamilton on unveiling the South African War Memorial (I presume the one that stands in St Annes Square):_

"Manchester has also cause for deep pride and thankfulness at the thought she could, if it were needed, call up Battalion after Battalion to fight in a just cause. Battalions who would be inspired by the memory and example of those heroic comrades who had gone before."