Doc2 Posted 23 July , 2007 Share Posted 23 July , 2007 Good morning. In visiting a CWGC cemetery this weekend, I found a captain whose unit is noted as "special list", rather than a more normal unit. Can anyone explain to me the meaning of "special list"? I have also seen officers noted as belonging to "general list"-- appreciate any explanations. Thanks. Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 23 July , 2007 Share Posted 23 July , 2007 Doc2 The only reference I can give is where RE personnel were recruited in a Special Brigade because of their chemistry qualifications from University and the New Army Divisions,they were promoted initially as Chemist Corporals of the RE. They were formed in July 1915 into 186 and 187 Special Companies RE initially and then a couple of months later 188 and 189 Companies were added. Each company had 17 sections of 28 men. They were trained mainly to deal with the techicalities of gas warfare. By 1918 the Special Brigade had an establishment of 208 Officers and 5306 men,made up as: HQ and Depot 4 special battalions of 4 companies (gas cylinders and smoke candles), 4 special companies armed with 48x4" Stokes mortars capable of firing gas shells,and, 4 special sections of Livens projectors (mortars) with 4 large and 16 portable sets. THis detail from the British Army Handbook 1914-1918 by Andrew Rawson. Best wishes Sotonmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc2 Posted 24 July , 2007 Author Share Posted 24 July , 2007 Doc2 The only reference I can give is where RE personnel were recruited in a Special Brigade because of their chemistry qualifications from University and the New Army Divisions,they were promoted initially as Chemist Corporals of the RE. They were formed in July 1915 into 186 and 187 Special Companies RE initially and then a couple of months later 188 and 189 Companies were added. Each company had 17 sections of 28 men. They were trained mainly to deal with the techicalities of gas warfare. By 1918 the Special Brigade had an establishment of 208 Officers and 5306 men,made up as: HQ and Depot 4 special battalions of 4 companies (gas cylinders and smoke candles), 4 special companies armed with 48x4" Stokes mortars capable of firing gas shells,and, 4 special sections of Livens projectors (mortars) with 4 large and 16 portable sets. THis detail from the British Army Handbook 1914-1918 by Andrew Rawson. Best wishes Sotonmate Thanks for that. Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc2 Posted 5 August , 2007 Author Share Posted 5 August , 2007 I'm going to bump this one up again, since I can't believe there isn't anyone on the forum who can enlighten me as to the officers being assigned not in a regiment or corps, but on "special list" or "general list". Thanks. Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 5 August , 2007 Share Posted 5 August , 2007 Doc The General List simply means an appointment as a staff officer -for example, detached from a Battalion and appointed to the staff of a Division. regards Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrydon Posted 5 August , 2007 Share Posted 5 August , 2007 I am attaching a ( hopefully legible ) explanation of the " General List " I cant find any refernces to the "Special List " P.B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrydon Posted 5 August , 2007 Share Posted 5 August , 2007 Sorry the attachment is not very good,if anyone would like a better copy please E mail me and I will forward one P.B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 5 August , 2007 Share Posted 5 August , 2007 Hi, I do not know if this is the same thing but on the Army Lists there is a section for "Special Lists". Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc2 Posted 6 August , 2007 Author Share Posted 6 August , 2007 Thanks, Mel and PB. That resolves the issue of the "general list"-- sort of what we Americans would call "General Staff". As regards the Special list, though, Mark, can you tell me if officers on any of these "special lists" would carry that as a regimental designation? Sounds more like these were simply lists of officers doing various specialised duties on a temporary basis-- but I would expect that, for example, that the gravestone of someone in list one would have read something like "lancaster fusiliers, attached Egyptian Army". It just doesn't seem logical that, given the regimental structure of the time, an officer would have "special list" on his gravestone simply for passing a course at the London School of Economics (Group 9). So far, Mark, you have provided me more information on the "special list" than anyone else I have found, so thanks. The officer concerned was Captain T. Scarlett, whose grave is in Belgrade cemetery, Namur, Belgium. Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 6 August , 2007 Share Posted 6 August , 2007 Hi , On the CWGC site there is a secondary unit "attd. H.Q. Staff R.T.O." http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=481186 So it could be Special Appointment to a Command Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 6 August , 2007 Share Posted 6 August , 2007 This looks like his Medal Card http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=7 Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 6 August , 2007 Share Posted 6 August , 2007 Also a Gazette entry HD-QRS. OF ADMIN. SERVS. AND DEPTS. Rail. Trans. Officers (Graded for purposes of pay as Staff Lts., 2nd Cl.). To be temp. Lts.— Lce.-Corpl. Thomas Scarlett, from R.E. 29th Oct. 1916. Regards Mark http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 6 August , 2007 Share Posted 6 August , 2007 Also his listing on the Dec 1918 Army List Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green_acorn Posted 6 August , 2007 Share Posted 6 August , 2007 (edited) Doc2, Your interpretation of a General List officer may be slightly wrong, they were an officer who could be appointed to any General List position in the Army, which DID NOT require some form of "special" training or experience. This does not include officers who served as "General Staff Officers" at a Headquarters, they had received "special" training and graduated from a Staff College or as mhifle's post of a "Special Lists" officers who qualified as a "consequence of Service on the Staff in the Field". I think you will also find the majority of "General Staff Officers" maintained their alliegance with their former Regiments and Corps and would not appear as "Special List" anywhere other than the "Army List" of officers. "Special List" during the Great War would have had particular reference to those officers who had an unique skill or experience, such as linguists, ordnance and intelligece officers and so on as described in mhifle's image. In your particular case I would suggest he had specific experience prior to the war in railway operations and management (which is why he would have been a Railway Transport Officer), in a similar way to that of my Great Grand Father having particular engineering skills in designing and building transportation systems (South America) of the time, became the Deputy Director Inland Water Transport (CAPT John Piper RE SL). Generally Special List Officers could not be employed in duties outside of their specific area of expertise or experience because they had been recruited for their unique skill and received abbreviated training so they could be quickly employed in their field. Doctors and Dentists are a good example of a "Special List" officer today and then, who receive a short period of training so they know how to wear the uniform, return a salute and then get on with their job! You certainly would not detail one to command a unit of infantry in the same way general lists officers could. Also remember the light and heavy railways and tramways on both sides were a major and continual artillery target, which would have required constant supervision by your RTO. In many cases operations ceased if the lines were taken out for too long, as they were the only viable way of getting supplies up in the quantities needed, particuarly to the guns. Kindest regards, Chris Edited 6 August , 2007 by green_acorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc2 Posted 7 August , 2007 Author Share Posted 7 August , 2007 Chris and Mark, thanks. That helps clarify it. Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green_acorn Posted 8 August , 2007 Share Posted 8 August , 2007 Doc, I remembered the term I was trying to think of that may be familiar to you and other US Pals, this being the current military term "Limited Duties Officer" which would directly equate to most Special List Officers of WW1 (As would the US/French term and employment methodology for CWO/WO in a much more narrow employment criteria, rather than the Commonwealth WO/SNCO and OR system). I would also strongly disagree with MelPacks interpretation that General List "simply means an appointment as a staff officer - for example, detached from a Battalion and appointed to the staff of a Division", the images provided by pbrydon and mhifle counter that claim and in fact show a staff officer as being "Special List" because of training or experience. I am happy if I am wrong (because I will have learnt something new), but my interpretation of why an officer would have only appeared as "Special List" or "General List" on the headstone, would be that they were appointed at a time of dire need and didn't have the opportunity to be allocated to a Regiment or Corps for "home and hearth" purposes by the "Military Secretary's" office or staff. The MilSec (at War Office, Force (BEF, EEF, MEF etc) and Army level, being responsible for officer appointment, management and promotion. Do you recall the particular "Special List" officers name? cheers and kindest regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc2 Posted 9 August , 2007 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2007 Chris, The officer concerned was Captain T. Scarlett, whose grave is in Belgrade cemetery, Namur, Belgium. Doc2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green_acorn Posted 23 August , 2007 Share Posted 23 August , 2007 No worries Doc. I would suggest if his headstone ever needs replacement, it should be amended to Captain T. Scarlett Royal Engineers (Special List). Reasoning, Railways belonged to RE and Scarlett had been commisioned from the ranks of RE. Headquarters of Administratice Services and Departments was the high level personnel and logistics staff or equivalant of DQAMG, or in French/US terminology, S1,S3,S4 at HQ BEF or an Army or Corps level HQ. Though in this case probably quite specific. cheers, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenhen Posted 15 July , 2022 Share Posted 15 July , 2022 I see there was a useful discussion on the in 2007, but I have a bit more information to add about an officer I am researching. The references I have found on Forces War Records are: 1914: unit: Special list Staff Captain; General list Captain (archive ref W/O 377/8/45553 1916: Rank: Temp 2nd Lt; Primary unit: Gloucestershire Regiment; Secondary Unit: Reserve Battalion formed in 1914, trained at Clipstone Camp (archive ref 1916 Army list) seniority date 6/12/1914 1917: New Armies Temp Capt (specially employed) rank: Temp Lt; 2nd Rank: Temp Capt; Regiment General List. Seniority date 1/7/1917 1918: Rank: Temp Lt; 2nd Rank Temp Capt. Regiment: Special list. MID for services in Salonika (archive ref: London Gazette 7/6/1918 page 6927) 1919: rank: Temp Capt. MID for services in Salonika 3/6/1919 page 7216 Regiment Commands and Staff; Battalion: General List (archive ref: London Gazette 3/6/1919, page 7216) In 1919 he was also awarded an MBE for services in the Balkans. It seems that an officer could hold two ranks at the same time and belong to two units at the same time, and never have a service number. I'm not sure what his particular skills were that put him on the Special list, he was a solicitor in civilian life, and worked for the Ministry of Transport after the war and possibly for a short while before it. Any comments gratefully received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 15 July , 2022 Share Posted 15 July , 2022 I assume this refers to https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3356814 WO 372/8/45553 Godsell, James Stanley Pool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 15 July , 2022 Share Posted 15 July , 2022 There are a large number of officers papers at TNA indicating Special List, for example a search for "Lieutenant" and "Special List" gives 1334 officers , and for "Captain" and "Special List" gives 900 officers, and for Special List and Major there are 235 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenhen Posted 15 July , 2022 Share Posted 15 July , 2022 Thanks for your reply and the lists. Yes I referred to the document you mention and nearly all the other entries I listed as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 July , 2022 Share Posted 15 July , 2022 6 minutes ago, Jenhen said: Thanks for your reply and the lists. Yes I referred to the document you mention and nearly all the other entries I listed as well. I think that there’s quite a good interpretation of the various lists outlined in this thread from last year: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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