Mark Hone Posted 13 January , 2003 Share Posted 13 January , 2003 I have begun to have vague thoughts about running a school battlefields tour to Gallipoli at Easter 2005. There are close links between Gallipoli and Bury Grammar School/Bury/The Lancashire Fusiliers (See 'Hell's Foundations: A Town, Its Myths and Gallipoli' by BGS old boy Geoffrey Moorhouse for details) and I would love to do a trip around the time of the 90th anniversary. I will run it in conjunction with our Classics department and it will include time in Istanbul and classical sites such as Ephesus. I anticipate spending two full days on the Gallipoli battlefields. I have never been to Gallopoli but know several people who have and have several guidebooks. As with all our trips would aim to see sites connected with old boys e.g Lancashire landing, the battle sites of 1/5th LF and the Auckland regiment. One of our old boys was an LF territorial who emigrated to NZ and was killed at Gallipoli. He is fittingly buried at Lancashire Landing cemetery together with many of his old LF comrades. If anyone has any advice etc it would be much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 13 January , 2003 Share Posted 13 January , 2003 Mark First reaction is that 2 days is not enough: Gallipoli is compact however getting arround takes some time. Suggest for local arrangements Down Under Travel, Eceabat, 17900,TURKEY e-mail: gavinpinar@yahoo.com Guven (Gavin) Pinar is a member of The Gallipoli Association. The association's expert for their tours is Col Michael Hickey e-mail: smwhickey@onetel.net.uk I thoroughly enjoyed Moorhouse's 'Hell's Foundations'. The idea sounds great and I wish you every success Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 13 January , 2003 Share Posted 13 January , 2003 Mark I don't know if you still frequent the Trenches on the Web, World War 1 Forum? There is a relatively new member on it, Altay Atli, who is Turkish, and seems to be very helpful and knowlegable on the campaign from the Turkish angle. You might like to try a post addressed to him on that forum. Having spent some time in Australia he speaks excellent English. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 13 January , 2003 Share Posted 13 January , 2003 Two days will be okay if you just want to look at Lancashire Landing, see the cemetery and explore the Krithia battlefields where 42nd Div fought. You could take your group on a great walk up part of Gully Ravine - but I wouldn't recommend walking all the way unless you have already done it yourself! There's some info on my website, as you may know, plus links to some others which are useful. One piece of advice: don't use the Holts Map! When I last went it had just come out and we found it very unreliable, and almost dangerous at Suvla with places and locations not marked correctly. I didn't get there last year, but I understand you can buy a local map now. As always feel free to contact me for any help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenwoodman Posted 13 January , 2003 Share Posted 13 January , 2003 Go for it, Mark. I would concur that 2 days aren't enough to do the complete peninsula. If you restrict it to two days, then Lancashire Landing will take up a lot of one day, and the other day would be a whiz round the top highlights. We were out there in April, and we allocated one day to the south end, one to Anzac, and one to Suvla. It was our second visit and we still didn't see all we wanted to. A couple of points in the planning - distances are quite long. Istanbul airport to Canakkale is about five hours by car, so longer by coach. And when touring the battlefields, conveniences have an inconvenient distance between them. And it is not unknown for stomach upsets to occur!!! A coach with a toilet should sort that out! And you'll need to rope them together when you get to the Grand bazaar in Istanbul!!! Just a thought about Easter time - we were there mid-April, and there was torrential rain on one day that flooded the dirt roads on the Peninsula. It restricted access to some cemeteries. But a wonderful place to take them, especially with that connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 13 January , 2003 Share Posted 13 January , 2003 Mark, there is a new motel near Krithia and the north coast, perfectly good but I can't tell you the name. If you have only two days you must stay on the European side, can spend an hour and a half a day fooling with the ferry otherwise. It leaves when full and if you hit it empty... If no one gives you the motel name I can find it I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 14 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 14 January , 2003 Thank you all for your suggestions. As I said the project is at an early stage of gestation-I've got Arnhem 2003 and Ieper 2004 to get through yet! However it's going to be a challenging operation particularly as I've never been myself. I also want to get in early as there is bound to be a rush around the 90th anniversary. The Bury Grammar School Gallipoli story is fascinating not only because of our close Lancashire Fusilier connections (Our OTC, now CCF, founded in 1892 has always been 'Fusilier) but also because we have our own ANZAC, Richard Wild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 14 January , 2003 Share Posted 14 January , 2003 Mark Regarding Paul's comments on maps Last winter's 'Gallipolian' No 97 mentioned an alternative published by the Gallipoli Peninsula Historical National "Milli" Peace Park which "...goes into great detail, including current roads, settlements, museums, cemeteries & memorials, trenches steams, shipwrecks, forestry and other natural areas." It was available at GBP 3.50 incld. post from Steve Chambers, 71 Station Road, Horsham, West Sussex, RH13 5EX Regards Michael D. R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 14 January , 2003 Share Posted 14 January , 2003 Paul's point about maps is well-made. Maps anywhere in Turkey are a problem, but especially in Gallipoli which is still a military zone and one in which foreigners were forbidden until in the 1960s. Thing have eased a lot in recent years, but I would adopt a belt-and-braces approach and sort out what you can in the UK. I would not rely on finding anything on the spot. The best maps I found were in those sold as an appendix to the Official British History, recently reprinted by Battery Press. They are about 1:25000 and they show all the major trench lines. They are hopelessly out of date in some respects eg no modern roads and are in black-and-white, but they are the best I saw. They are sold separately for about £16 from the IWM. They may be better ones available as part of the Official Australian History, but I don't know. Paul also hinted at the existence of more detailed trench maps in the PRO, but I have never seen these so I cannot comment. Avoid the Anzac period, June to September inclusive (too hot), and the big Turkish religious holidays when all of Turkey is on the move. Check the dates of Kurban Bayram, (the Muslim equivalent of Passover and Easter) and avoid them. Make friends with Güven Pinarci: excellent English, very friendly bloke and in love with Gallipoli. If two days is what you have then you have to make the most of it. To do this you need to make a visit before you take the party. The geomorphology of the battlefield, especially Anzac Cove, is very complicated and you won't have good maps. You will find it hard to work out who did what, where and when on the spot with 40 kids breathing down your neck and bus driver pressing his horn. On your preliminary visit check out the Eceabat hotel in Eceabat - you might find that a good base. If you are going to Istanbul take out some time to prepare the ground. Visit the Army museum up in Taksim Square and the Navy Museum in Besiktas; the latter is the best 50ps worth in Turkey and is especially good on the naval operations. Also St. George's, the CofE Chruch in Pera has a beautiful Gallipoli memorial. You could combine a visit to Besiktas with a ferry trip across the Bosphorus to Hydarpasar and visit Skutari Hospital with its Florence Nightingale associations (guided visits are possible) and pay a visit to Hydarpasar CWGC. Have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 14 January , 2003 Share Posted 14 January , 2003 Mark Regarding Paul's comments on maps Last winter's 'Gallipolian' No 97 mentioned an alternative published by the Gallipoli Peninsula Historical National "Milli" Peace Park which "...goes into great detail, including current roads, settlements, museums, cemeteries & memorials, trenches steams, shipwrecks, forestry and other natural areas." It was available at GBP 3.50 incld. post from Steve Chambers, 71 Station Road, Horsham, West Sussex, RH13 5EX Regards Michael D. R. Thanks Michael - that's the map I was thinking of. Incidentally, Steve Chambers is currently working on a book on Gully Ravine in the BE series which should be out this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 14 January , 2003 Share Posted 14 January , 2003 I walked nearly all the way up Gully Ravine in October after a heavy rain. It's quite a scramble getting out up a steep hillside with extremely heavy thick brush. I think your boys could do it easily but keeping them together may be quite difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 15 January , 2003 Share Posted 15 January , 2003 I walked nearly all the way up Gully Ravine in October after a heavy rain. It's quite a scramble getting out up a steep hillside with extremely heavy thick brush. I think your boys could do it easily but keeping them together may be quite difficult. People who visit WW1 sites on the Front or elsewhere often say that there is nothing to see; that there is nothing of the original experience left. What they mean is that nothing physical remains. But there is more to a battlefield than physical remains. In Gully Ravine one can still experience the climate; one one leaves the beach and walks up the Ravine one immediately notices the very humid, ennervating and energy-sapping micro-climate. Many of the soldiers complained about it and how it made life there a nightmare. And it is still there today ... . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 15 January , 2003 Share Posted 15 January , 2003 Paul R. Many thanks for the advance notice of Chambers' book; I will certainly keep an eye open for it. Gully Ravine is a fascinating place where each winter's flash floods still reveal the odd piece if 1915 debris. I spent a full day walking up it May 2001 with one of Len Sellers' RND tours: an unforgettable experience. Mark's problem however, is getting around Helles/Anzac/Suvla in only 2 days. At this point they will probably only have time for Gully Beach and the RND well. Anyone else with more time to spare should (weather permitting) certainly set one day aside for a walk up Gully Ravine; an experience not to be missed. Thanks again for the book tip; Regards, Michael D. R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 15 January , 2003 Share Posted 15 January , 2003 Lots of SRD bits in Gully Ravine. About half way up there is a road off to the right that I think was war time construction, British I assume. As pictured in Holt's Guide there is a war time well near the beach. Our party strung out very badly and I wonder about 40 kids doing the same. One member thought we had been endangered too but I don't really agree, yes you could break a leg but brush scratches are alll that's really likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 15 January , 2003 Share Posted 15 January , 2003 I think this is the well you mean, Paul: It was built by Joe Murray and his comrades from RND; I had the pleasure of knowing Joe in the last few years of his life. His books are WW1 classics, in particular Gallipoli As I Saw It. Incidentally, that's not me in the photo, but WFA founder-member John Dray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 16 January , 2003 Share Posted 16 January , 2003 Great picture Paul, thanks. I envy you having known him, I will just have to get you to tell me about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 17 January , 2003 Share Posted 17 January , 2003 Lots of SRD bits in Gully Ravine. About half way up there is a road off to the right that I think was war time construction, British I assume. Paul, I wonder if you can help me here. In 2001 we went up that incline which you mentioned and having gone back to Nigel Steel's book 'Gallipoli' since reading your post, I now realise that it fits the Rev Oswin Creighton's description of Aberdeen Gully (part of the way up there is an an amphitheatre off to the side which could have been the dressing station.) We continued to the top (Gully Spur) and found what we thought were signs of trenches, an impression reinforced by also finding half a rum jar. (Not the first trenches near the top of the track, which we thought were probably more modern, but further across the spur.) I have a photocopy of a trench map for Gully Ravine/Gully Spur, but Aberdeen Gully is not marked on it. Question: do you think that we are talking about the area arround Jennet Road? Hoping that you can assist, regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 17 January , 2003 Share Posted 17 January , 2003 Have emailed Michael confessing I have no idea, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 17 January , 2003 Share Posted 17 January , 2003 Paul, Thanks for your reply and don't worry, I am grateful that your post took me back to a wonderful day on a great tour. Best regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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