British Army Brothels

[Gunboat]

as I mentioned elsewhere in posts my grandafathers military history was a unknown to our family.

When I got his records there was two entries in his medical record of having contracted STDs

One in 1907 in India

The other in France in 1916....the later he spent 56 days in hospital and would of course of lost that pay over that period. He certainly got it from a brothel he had had no home leave until 1917 and it was only then he married my grandmother

I was reluctant to tell my mother at first as he had been a terribly strict moralist and disciplinarian to her and her siblings, but when I did she was very philosophical about it.

To me it painted a very human picture. From time immemorial the two oldest professions have run parallell

[zooloo]

bawdyhouse -- das Freudenhaus

brothel -- das Freudenhaus

house of prostitution -- das Freudenhaus

pleasure dome -- das Freudenhaus

whorehouse -- das Freudenhaus

5 hits.

The New English-German Dictionary

Babelfish translate it as "Joy House".

Sounds quite nice

[Desdichado]

Notice this thread has such an incredible number of people viewing it...

You can't help it, it just catches your eye!

I always thought of getting a job in advertising.

[Muerrisch]

Did I hear somewhere that the establishments for officers and ORs were distinguishable by the colour of the light they displayed? Blue for Officers and red for ORs I think.

Peter

I have spent hours of my life trying to substantiate this, and so far have found nothing of substance. If officers' had brothels as such [which I doubt, because of their easier access to local talent] they do not appear to have been advertised by a blue light.

I would be delighted to be proven wrong, but I need PROOF not hearsay!

[Maj Gen'l Grumpy as a name had a predecessor on this site, Old Captain Grumpy, late 4th Armoured Thunderbox Dragoons and part time [light duties only] pianist in an officers' brothel, but he was not founded on much evidence, just a warped sense of humour!]

[green_acorn]

Though other nations may have had a more "liberal" approach to the business of "camp followers", Dien Ben Phu in the 1950's and the image of the horse drawn cart come to mind. The one point I would make is I am sure there is no evidence of the British Army or the other major national components of the Empire Army for that matter, particularly of that immediate post-Victorian era or later times, being in the business of running brothels per se. Which the thread title could be read to imply.

One would suspect in WW1 France, pragmatism reigned supreme and the authorities regarded it as a French civil matter, though because of the necessary command, morale and discipline issues they would institute some military control measures for BEF troops (Routine Orders placing establishments Out-Of-Bounds, disciplinary action against repeat STD offenders, MP's controlling troops in public places near said establishments and so on). I would say the best place to find anything definitive would be in the Town Major's Diaries/records for the major towns which were never captured in the BEF zone, that is if these records survived the BEF post war thinning of records (Which I believe was many tons of paper destroyed in 1919-1921 rather than sending the records back to the UK).

[sjustice]

I have spent hours of my life trying to substantiate this, and so far have found nothing of substance. If officers' had brothels as such [which I doubt, because of their easier access to local talent] they do not appear to have been advertised by a blue light. I would be delighted to be proven wrong, but I need PROOF not hearsay!

If you read Robert Graves Goodbye to All That, all will be revealed in glorious colour

Capt. Graves [Royal Welch Fusiliers] makes direct reference to the Red and Blue Lamp hostelries and their clientele.

Kind Regards,

SMJ

[Muerrisch]

Thank, I know the Graves account well, but GTAT, whilst a grand read, never lets the facts get in the way of a good yarn, and a great deal of the book can be demonstrated to be hyperbole, I am afraid.

Dr Dunn, the compiler of 'The War the Infantry Knew' exposed several falsehoods when he scribbled in the margins of his own copy of GTAT.

[green_acorn]

I have just been back and read my earlier post and added the following to correct any incorrect perception I may have caused:

Please don't read the above to infer the Out of Bounds to OR establishments meant there were "Brothels for Officers", I don't think anything further could be from the truth in the British Army or the other primary Commonwealth nations, our Protestant/Presbyterian morals of then or more recent times wouldn't allow it. The primary reason, other than to prevent fighting or illegal activity that places a establishment or area OOB's was and would be to establish procedures which minimise fraternisation between ranks, which is what the OOB rule was and is partly for: fraternisation leads to familiarity which leads to loss of respect and therefore discipline etcetra. I certainly know as a former soldier, each rank group wants and needs their own space and privacy, to be able to be themselves, OOB rules do this in wartime as does the Mess/Club system in barracks and deployed bases today.

regards,

Chris

[wig]

[if officers' had brothels as such [which I doubt, because of their easier access to local talent]

The German Army mobile brothel unit pictured above is for Officers only. God knows what the O.R.'s women looked like.....

wig

[sjustice]

Dr Dunn, the compiler of 'The War the Infantry Knew' exposed several falsehoods when he scribbled in the margins of his own copy of GTAT.

The confirmation of the [uncomfortable] truth regarding the existence of the blue lamp officer brothels was not among his scribbled grumbles as far as I know.

SMJ

[charlesmessenger]

To go back to Desdichado's original query, it was only in India and the Middle East that the Army had brothels per se. In France the Army had a policy of closing down brothels in the forward areas, but in the base area it was a different matter since this remained under French civil administration. While every effort was made to dissuade soldiers from visiting them it was accepted that it would take too many military policemen to enforce an out of bounds rule. The solution, achieved with the aid of the French civil authorities, was the maisons tolerees, brothels which were subjected to regular medical inspection and which were open to soldiers at set times of the day. In spite of Haig's vehement objections that this would increase the incidence of VD, the Army Council ordered them to be placed out of bounds in spring 1918. Haig's letter can be found in WO 32/5597 at the National Archives, Kew and there is further useful information in Denis Winter's Death's Men.

Charles M

[Muerrisch]

The confirmation of the [uncomfortable] truth regarding the existence of the blue lamp officer brothels was not among his scribbled grumbles as far as I know.

SMJ

You are right regarding the lack of marginalia on the subject of blue lights. This of course demonstrates nothing .... Dunn seemingly reached for his pencil only when the red mists descended, and then his comments were barrack-room style.

The psychology of officers frequenting brothels advertised by a blue light flies in the face of what I know about officers. My personal knowledge and acquaintance of army officers is less than that of RAF officers, but the set-up just does not ring true.

I would be happy to be proved wrong, but an anecdote by Graves and a non-comment by Dunn is slender indeed.

To go back to Desdichado's original query, it was only in India and the Middle East that the Army had brothels per se.

Charles M

And Burma, Charles. See Old Soldier Sahib, for example.

[Desdichado]

From what I have read, officers on leave in Paris had no difficulty in securing female company, whether on a commercial basis or otherwise. If officer-only brothels did exist - and from reading the posts on this topic, there is much dispute about this - they would have of necessity been discreet and far away from the prying eyes of the other ranks. News of Lt. So-and-so catching the clap would have raised a laugh in the trenches.

My main interest in this topic is who actually employed the girls. I have read a few courts-martial transcripts where the prisoners' friend remarked that the the accused had sex with an unlicenced prostitute thereby contracting VD; the inference being that he wouldn't have had he visited an officially snactioned bordello. The question I'm trying to answer is to whether the army contracted - impliedly or otherwise - with madams, and thus had control over what services were to be provided, and to whom.

As for India, the prostitues there tended to charge according to rank. Richard Holmes in Sahib recounts that some NCOs would remove their chevrons to get a cheaper rate.

[charlesmessenger]

Desdichado

In the Middle East, India, and Burma (thanks Grumpy!) the Army dealt directly with the brothel keeper and they were military brothels per se. In France it dealt through the local civil authorities. I would certainly recommend you looking at the TNA reference I gave you in my earlier post. I think that it would go a long way to answering your questions in detail.

Charles M

[Desdichado]

Thanks Charles,

I'll read your prior reply. I must have missed it first time round. I hate being old and senile.