IanA Posted 16 July , 2007 Share Posted 16 July , 2007 I posted this query recently on a thread I initiated regarding Lyness Naval Cemetery but have had no replies so I'll try again here! While walking around this cemetery I was struck by the number of Hampshire graves containing two men. I can understand such a thing happening on the western front due to the horrific results of shells and decomposition of bodies, but Hampshire sank quite close to shore and I can't think of any reason why this practice should take place at Lyness. Any explanations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 16 July , 2007 Share Posted 16 July , 2007 I posted this query recently on a thread I initiated regarding Lyness Naval Cemetery but have had no replies so I'll try again here! While walking around this cemetery I was struck by the number of Hampshire graves containing two men. I can understand such a thing happening on the western front due to the horrific results of shells and decomposition of bodies, but Hampshire sank quite close to shore and I can't think of any reason why this practice should take place at Lyness. Any explanations? How many of them were doubles? If she hit a mine some of the bodies would possibly have been blown to shreds (recall reading of an arm found washed up in the Thames Estuary after the Bulwark hit a mine in 1914). Re Johannes Thill (do I have that right?) he probably died from accident or Spanish flu and was part of the interred HSF. Are the other German graves in Lyness WW2? Heard they had lousy weather at the weekend! Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 16 July , 2007 Share Posted 16 July , 2007 Also found this comment on http://www.hmshampshire.co.uk/ The bodies of over 100 officers and men were recovered from the sea and were interred into one common grave where they now lay to rest at the Lyness Cemetery, Hoy, Orkney. I wonder if that means the headstones do not identify a single body but are named (or un-named) for a body retrieved and committed to a common grave whose boundaries are the rows of headstones. Or does that sound stupid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 16 July , 2007 Author Share Posted 16 July , 2007 Sorry Jon, I didn't note just how many were doubles but memory tells me there were at least three and possibly more. Again, from memory, all the doubles were identified. The other German graves are almost all High Seas Fleet. I am surprised that the CWGC site does not give details of the German burials. It seems such a small thing to do. When I was on North Ronaldsay, the locals were very anxious to get some rain! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 16 July , 2007 Author Share Posted 16 July , 2007 The bodies of over 100 officers and men were recovered from the sea and were interred into one common grave where they now lay to rest at the Lyness Cemetery, Hoy, Orkney. I wonder if that means the headstones do not identify a single body but are named (or un-named) for a body retrieved and committed to a common grave whose boundaries are the rows of headstones. Or does that sound stupid? In any other CWGC cemetery such commemorative stones are usually placed around the walls and clearly state what they are. The 'one common grave' is news to me. Do the CWGC mention this? I don't recall seeing anything to that effect and, as you know, there is no area marked as such at Lyness. Puzzling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 16 July , 2007 Share Posted 16 July , 2007 I am surprised that the CWGC site does not give details of the German burials. It seems such a small thing to do. A great shame ... I did start a post on here a few months ago about accumulating info on noteworthy German burials but id didnt get very far as I recall. At least Johannes Thill receives a lot of attention from those that are fortunate to make the pilgrimage to Lyness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 16 July , 2007 Share Posted 16 July , 2007 In any other CWGC cemetery such commemorative stones are usually placed around the walls and clearly state what they are. The 'one common grave' is news to me. Do the CWGC mention this? I don't recall seeing anything to that effect and, as you know, there is no area marked as such at Lyness. Puzzling! Yes thats my experience too and no the CWGC does not mention a mass grave. The link and I quote I gave you might be misinformed. Sorry! Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 16 July , 2007 Author Share Posted 16 July , 2007 Where's Terry when you need him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 July , 2007 Share Posted 16 July , 2007 Double CWGC graves are not unknown in the UK. There are some quite near me in Sussex. They indicate two men in the grave - probably to save space in a local authority provided common grave. Remember that CWGC did not do the burying! However, this would not be the case at the RN cemetery at Lyness as it is not a local authority cemetery. Jon is probably right in that the remains are mingled or are only partial remains and the RN put them in double graves. Without knowing the site, I cannot say if space saving came into the matter. CWGC does record the names of all Foreign National war graves in their care including those at Lyness. However, even though they have maintenance agreements with the foreign governments, they are not the responsible authority for the graves. Their Royal Charter gives them no remit to commemorate foreign servicemen - only those of Commonwealth casualties so none can appear on their website. If you want the names, I can give them to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 17 July , 2007 Share Posted 17 July , 2007 Without knowing the site, I cannot say if space saving came into the matter. Terry - I dont think this was an issue. Large parts of the walled cemetery contain no evidence of graves. Regards, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 17 July , 2007 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2007 Terry, many thanks for lending your expertise to this thread. I would second Jon in saying that space is most definitely not a problem at Lyness. I guess the only reason left is that of mutilation but I would have imagined that if enough existed to give positive identifications then individuals might have been sorted out. The German names are not important to me - I know that it is not the resposibility of the CWGC but had thought that, as such a little thing, their names might have been included as a courtesy. I don't suppose anyone has any ideas about poor old isolated (by many yards) Johannes Thil and his lonely grave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 17 July , 2007 Share Posted 17 July , 2007 On the subject of space saving, the appearance of the cemetery is not always a guide. 1) There may have been plenty of room but the cemetery authority was 'forward planning'. Allowing for expansion and more graves at a later date - an eventuality which may not have come to pass. This was certainly the case down here in Sussex. 2) Many empty spaces are actually full of graves but which are unmarked. I am not making these points and saying that they could apply to Lyness (they probably don't) but they do apply elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 17 July , 2007 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2007 I did not take the attached picture specifically to illustrate how much space there is at Lyness but it gives some idea. On your second point - given that it is an official CWGC cemetery, surely any burials would be marked in some way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 17 July , 2007 Share Posted 17 July , 2007 Ian I said my comments did not apply to Lyness. This is not a CWGC cemetery but is owned by the MoD. CWGC only owns two cemeteries in the UK and one of these has unmarked graves (pre-dating CWGC's ownership). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 17 July , 2007 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2007 This is not a CWGC cemetery but is owned by the MoD. CWGC only owns two cemeteries in the UK and one of these has unmarked graves (pre-dating CWGC's ownership). Interesting. With its Cross of Sacrifice and CWGC headstones, it certainly looks like a CWGC cemetery and they appear to 'own' it on their web site. It is frustrating that, given the importance of the Hampshire, there appears to be so little reliable information on the aftermath. I know that rumours and conspiracy theories abounded - the army refused permission to lauch the Stromness lifeboat, Orkadians were prevented from going to the cliffs, it was carrying large quantities of gold... Someone must have done some research on HMS Hampshire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 17 July , 2007 Share Posted 17 July , 2007 Someone must have done some research on HMS Hampshire? A few years ago I was contacted by someone ... female (an unusual event the fair sex contacting me) ... but cannot remember her name. She was researching a book or article on HMS Hampshire. I know she had something published in article form. I will see if I can dig out old emails. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcderms Posted 17 July , 2007 Share Posted 17 July , 2007 Try getting in touch with John Thornton via www.scapaflow.com John is the skipper who discovered and first dived the Hampshire but then got pilloried when some Euro-idiots on his boat nicked a porthole (without his knowledge, natch). He know everyone who's anyone and should be able to put you in touch with someone. Re: finding out more... this is what happens when you ban diving on remote, inacessible wrecks like this one - the amatuers who do all the research can't get near her anymore. Obviously this is because we're all grave robbing ghouls, don't you know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 17 July , 2007 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2007 Obviously this is because we're all grave robbing ghouls, don't you know Ah, I see. Seriously, I will try contacting John and will report back if I learn anything. I take it he's not the one who salved the prop and its shaft?? Jon - I thought you'd have pencilled her number in your little black book... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 17 July , 2007 Share Posted 17 July , 2007 Odd coincidence... The Sussex cemetery with the double CWGC graves which I mentioned above also has the grave of Kitchener's ADC who drowned with him on the Hampshire. Name: FITZGERALD, OSWALD ARTHUR GERALD Initials: O A G Nationality: Indian Rank: Brevet Lieut-Colonel Regiment/Service: 18th King George's Own Lancers Age: 40 Date of Death: 05/06/1916 Awards: C M G Additional information: Legion of Honour. Son of the late Col. Sir Charles FitzGerald. Served on Field Marshal Lord Kitchener's Staff as A.D.C. and Military Secretary. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: X. 1677. Cemetery: EASTBOURNE (OCKLYNGE) CEMETERY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 17 July , 2007 Share Posted 17 July , 2007 A few years ago I was contacted by someone ... female (an unusual event the fair sex contacting me) ... but cannot remember her name. She was researching a book or article on HMS Hampshire. I know she had something published in article form. I will see if I can dig out old emails. Jon A lass by the name of Jane Storey by any chance ? She has a site janestorey@hmshampshire.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 17 July , 2007 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2007 She does indeed. A lot of work has gone into it but Jon and I are puzzled by this quotation: The bodies of over 100 officers and men were recovered from the sea and were interred into one common grave where they now lay to rest at the Lyness Cemetery, Hoy, Orkney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 22 July , 2007 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2007 Try getting in touch with John Thornton via www.scapaflow.com He know everyone who's anyone and should be able to put you in touch with someone. Height (or should that be depth) of the diving season. Perhaps he's busy..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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