ChrisM Posted 12 July , 2007 Share Posted 12 July , 2007 Could some kind expert on this forum identify these two aircraft types for me, please? They have recently emerged from an Australian family album and are images from the early days of the Australian Air Force during WW1. They are regrettably undated and are not annotated with any additional information. If anyone can make any further comment to make about likely timing, location etc. I should be most grateful. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 12 July , 2007 Share Posted 12 July , 2007 Chris The upper photograph is a Bristol Scout, and the lower is a Martinsyde G.100 or G.102 "Elephant". Both types were used on the Palestine Front by No 67 (Australian) Squadron, Royal Flying Corps, which became No 1 Squadron, Australian Flying Corps, on 6 February 1918. The Bristol is unarmed, so the photograph may have been taken at a training unit. I hope that this helps you. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 12 July , 2007 Share Posted 12 July , 2007 The majority of Bristol scouts in the RFC and the AFC were employed as un armed scouts, the majority of the type being produced before the adoption of an adequate synchronisation gear by the Allies so the lacj of armament does not automatically mean a training aircraft (although thats what many ended up as). Various attempts were made to improvise something from fixed automatic rifles at 45 degrees horizontal so as to clear the air screw, and Lewises firing through the prop with bullet deflectors or even just metal tape bindings on the blades (the theory being that if a bullet hit the blade it would punch a hole and not shatter it) but not widely used for obvious reasons. Where the Lewis was fitted it appears to have been mounted in the starboard side of the fuselage and not in front of the pilot. A few Bristol Scouts were fitted with a synchronised vickers but again some were mounted on the starboarf side of the fuselage but by this time the Sopwith Pup was in service and few if any Bristols so armed saw active service. BTW It wasn't the Australian Airforce then but the Australian Flying Corps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitzee Posted 12 July , 2007 Share Posted 12 July , 2007 Why didn't they just mount the Lewis gun on the top wing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Roberts Posted 13 July , 2007 Share Posted 13 July , 2007 Why didn't they just mount the Lewis gun on the top wing? I've often wondered that. They did it on Nieuport 11s - i.e before the invention of the Foster mounting as used on the SE5a. The Nieuport was even smaller than the Bristol so I wouldn't have thought upsetting the balance would have been a problem. Could it be that a Bristol's propeller blade tips were so far above the top of the wing that the gun would have been at a fixed upward angle and therefore difficult to aim even compared with the version firing sideways to clear the propeller? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 13 July , 2007 Share Posted 13 July , 2007 Mates, Of cause untill we know a name of the soldier/pilot its hard to be sure but 67 Sqn (1 Sqn) AFC had some seven Britol Scouts on their rolls. Bristol Type C 4684 TOC 12-7-18 from 17 Sqn RFC sent to 14 Sqn RFC 28-7-16 4686 TOC 12-7-16 "" "" "" "" 7-1-17 Bristol Type D 5322 TOC 11-8-16 from X Park returned X Park 2-3-17 7028 TOC 2-1-17 "" "" "" "" 17-2-17 7032 TOC 20-12-16 "" "" """ "" 17-2-17 7047 TOC 17-12-16 "" "" "" "" 7-1-17 A1762 TOC 28-7-17 "" "" "" "" 20-8-17 The second photo looks like one of a unknown Flight from 67 Sqn (1 Sqn) AFC showing both pilots, observers and ground crew of that flight. Cheers S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisM Posted 17 July , 2007 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2007 Many thanks, gentlemen, for all your help on this. Your comments tie in well with some additional information of which I have subsequently become aware and which relate to the original owner of the photographs. I will post it below, for the record. Corporal Herbert J. Milner was a member of 1st. Squadron, Australian Flying Corps. He originally worked as a Carpenter and during his war service he was described as a 'Sail Maker', then a 'Rigger' and later an 'Air Mechanic'. His Regimental No. was Aus/122. His service record also has several references to 'attachment' and 'detachment' from "X" Aircraft Park RAF over the period from Aug. 1918 to 28 Dec. 1918. Suez, Port Said and Egypt are places mentioned in his War Record and in his effects there was also found a photo of Tel-el-Kebir from the air. It’s probable that not much additional information on Herbert’s war service exists. But the current owners of these photographs (in Victoria) would welcome any further thoughts which this information might prompt, and especially the function and location of “X” Aircraft Park. Thanks again. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelsjbl Posted 17 July , 2007 Share Posted 17 July , 2007 Chris Not sure if it is relevant, but the Official History of Australia in the war of 1914-1918, Volume VIII entitled "The Australian Flying Corps" ISBN 0 7022 1727 1. (I think) has a lot about #1 squadron and it's service in the middle east. I quote from a passage "No1 Squadron first became interested in these operations on May 16th (1918) when Ross Smith flew Colonel Lawrence from Allenby's headquarters to the plains near El Kutrani and landed him there. At Cairo a special air detachment called 'X' Flight, R.A.F., was formed to work with Lawrence in the desert. With this flight were a number of Australian Mechanics and two B.E.12.a machines..." "Lawrence's party and the air-mechanics moved across the desert to Azrak on August 31st and September 1st...." The Lawrence being talked about was Lawrence of Arabia and at that time he was involved in sabotage attacks in the desert. It would appear that air mechanics from #1 squadron AFC were involved with him. Perhaps "X" Park was a base of the "X" Flight? Without rereading the book in full again I cannot find any reference to X park in a quick skim but the timing and location certainly seem to fit what you have. Regards Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 17 July , 2007 Share Posted 17 July , 2007 Fitzee and Adrian. At least one Bristol Scout did have a Lewis mounted on the top wing. 4662 Scout C of 12 Sqdn was so armed and the gun was not tilted to clear prop tips. However looking at a not very clear photo the gun has been positioned in over the cut out in the top wing to bring it far enough back so it can be swung down for reloading and it looks somewhat cumbersome. Most armaments on the Bristol Scouts A, B, & C were added by squadrons after issue and facilities in their workshops may not have been up to makung complicated mounts. The height of the top wing and the stagger may have made the Bristol Scouts less suitable for a top wing mount than the Nieuports Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 17 July , 2007 Share Posted 17 July , 2007 The location of “X” Aircraft Park. Chris "X" Aircraft Park was at Kantara; in essence, it was an aircraft distrubution centre. Regards Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 17 July , 2007 Share Posted 17 July , 2007 The second photo looks like one of a unknown Flight from 67 Sqn (1 Sqn) AFC showing both pilots, observers and ground crew of that flight. Cheers S.B So why are they posing with a Martinsyde Elephant single seat aircraft? What role did observers have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domsim Posted 18 July , 2007 Share Posted 18 July , 2007 Chris Perhaps "X" Park was a base of the "X" Flight? Without rereading the book in full again I cannot find any reference to X park in a quick skim but the timing and location certainly seem to fit what you have. Regards Brian Hi brian X flight was nothing to do with 'X Park'. X flight was a detachment of C flight, 14 Squadron RFC which was based at Aqaba in southern Jordan from September 1917 until september 1918. C Flight 14 Squadron had earlier provided air support in what is now Saudi Arabia in 1916 to forces of the Arab Revolt based at Rabegh and Yenbo. The majority of crew on this section were RFC personel, although pilots from 1 Squadron AFC did fly with the unit, especially in 1918. Cutlack is not a very good source for X flights activities but the British Official history of the war in the air is. Check this thread for more details Air war in Palestine Cheers Dominic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 20 July , 2007 Share Posted 20 July , 2007 Cent my old son, I bow to your knowage of this aircraft, but can I say the photos I have of the Flights of 1 Sqn had names of all air and ground crew which include pilots, observers and the men that kept them flying. This photo is not unlike the one's I have, only fewer men and could as mentioned be part of the X Aircraft Park where the flying staff used to test fly serviced aircraft of which a number lost there lives or to ferry aircraft between the 1 Sqn and the Park. Mate also for a closer look at 1 Sqn AFC there is a book called "One Airmans War" from the personal Diaries of Joe Bull, who was a rigger in 1 Sqn and left a day by day account of his expirences in the war, its full of personal photos and many others edited by Mark Lax. S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 20 July , 2007 Share Posted 20 July , 2007 You may have already seen "Australian Flying Corps 1914-19" by Charles Schaedel, Published by Kookaburra in 1973 It has a chapter dedicated to No 1 Squadron in Egypt and Palestine with some excellent photos including a number of the Elephant showing how, whilst it was a single seater, the pilot was nervertheless provided with a rearward firing gun. There is also a shot of a Bristol Scout on which a Lt Wackett was endevouring to develop a sychronised gun mechanism (I assume that he is the one the later Australian training aircraft was named for). On the back of the book are two very interesting coloured photos of Bristol Fighters in the desert, taken by Lt Ross Smith (later to be Sir Ross Smith). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisM Posted 26 July , 2007 Author Share Posted 26 July , 2007 Grateful thanks, everyone, for the further contributions. Much appreciated. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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