David_Bluestein Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 I just stumbled on a 'named' copy 1914-15 Star on ebay (Item number: 2214751437). I don't necessarily see any harm in copy medals, provided they are clearly marked COPY and unnamed. However having a name on a copy medal, with NO 'copy' designation is worrisome. Especially in light of this relatively common 1914-15 Star, that may actually find its way to someone believing its real. What are your thoughts on named copy medals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Burns Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 Hi David, I'm with you in terms of named copies I think it will very quickly be passed of as an original. Looking at the photos it appears to be a cast copy? It's difficult to make out the naming on the reverse photos. Yet another thing to look out for! Happy New Year, Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 It is totally irresponsible of the manufacturer to make this medal in such a way as it might fool anyone who buys it in the beief that it is genuine. Pretty much everyone reading this will know that I manufacture certain products using the original, 70 or 80 year old moulds. I clearly mark everything so that anyone buying my product knows that it was made today and not in the 1920s. As well as marking it, I also have readily available information about my products, and the various forgeries that exist, on a website. I believe it is the duty of any reputable manufacturer to do the same. Every week on eBay, someone attempts to pass off one of my products (or a 'fake' made in the far east) as a genuine item. I write nicely to the 'offender', in case the seller is unaware ( ) of their actions, and use the authorities (eBay and the police if necessary) where applicable. If the manufacturer of this medal was to mark this as a 'COPY', then someone could, of course, later remove the word 'COPY' (using a grinding wheel) and then engrave/stamp the name. In this case, the manufacturer can't, and should not, be held responsible - or should they do more to prevent such actions.....?? It has happened with my products; some low-life has ground off my trade name and made the item worth 15 times its current value to an unsuspecting collector. So more precautions must be taken by me, and any other manufacturer of 'copy' goods, to protect the collectors market. A reputable manufacturer must try and be one step ahead of the forger and should make the medal in a slightly different way - in the same way that I use a slightly different form of decoration to ensure that no one can pass off something as old, when it is actually new, even if identifying marks are removed. So why, for example, could not the back of this medal have a concave surface....?? Who makes these replica medals - or more to the point, who is having them made!!?? Someone reading this knows the answer - and I'll bet a hefty sum that the person responsible is a genuine collector of medals and knows the market well...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeff Floyd Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 It will soon enough be sold as real with an explanation of why its surface is so rough and grainy - and the Ebay seller will be able to point out that he sold it as a copy, so it's not his doing. It's not a real medal, it was never issued to Gnr Turner, so it's pure junk. But, someone will buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 David, Take Kitchener's medal on display at the RE Museum, these are copies, as the originals were lost when HMS Hampshire was sunk plus the good man himself. I know of another copy trio, which went under the hammer with the man's WW2 service medals as his originals had been lost when his first ship struck a mine. I think we shouldn't lose sight that there may be a very good reason and interesting story as to why a copy set was issued, but I do understand your concerns. Happy New Year, Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 I too understand the concerns being voiced here & I think it is appalling that copies are passed off as the real thing..................however, I can also see the desire to have a copy looking as authentic as possible.............It is my dearest wish to somehow retrieve the medals of my Great Uncle which were stolen many years ago. The likelihood of this happening is just about zero. Because of this I am now seriously considering purchasing copies. Should I take the plunge and do so I want these copies to be exact in their detail including having his name on them.......Whilst they will still only be copies, they will not be junk to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 1 January , 2004 Share Posted 1 January , 2004 Because of this I am now seriously considering purchasing copies. Should I take the plunge and do so I want these copies to be exact in their detail including having his name on them....... That's fair enough. However a lot of people are tracing their family tree, and if you get a copy of a relative's birth certificate, because the original is lost, it has all the information on it - AND it is clearly marked COPY/REPLACEMENT. There is a solution for named, replacement medals (copy). Let the responsible manufacturer publish details on a website which shows the named medals that have been re-issued. This protects the collectors - and everyone is happy. Of course it will never happen, because the seller/manufacturer is 'banking' on people buying these medals for exactly the reason you have suggested; you want to display the medals (and you don't want the word copy to appear, or spoil, the appearance). And then we all know that there are people who are looking to 'make up' valuable sets, with the sole intention of deceiving a collector. Sorry, but I think it's wrong to copy something and not make it clear that this is so. You can't have it both ways, or we'd all be sitting on Chippendale chairs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Bluestein Posted 1 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 1 January , 2004 Sorry, but I think it's wrong to copy something and not make it clear that this is so. My thoughts exactly. Well put. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 1 January , 2004 Share Posted 1 January , 2004 Teapots..............I understand exactly where you are coming from & the basis behind your comments..............I think some sort of record of copies would be an excellent idea. Also if there was some way to 'mark' the medals either in an inconspicuous way such as a 'copy' hallmark or an 'ultraviolet' type of method I would be all for it.........However having 'COPY' or 'REPLACEMENT' stamped across it would, for me, spoil it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 1 January , 2004 Share Posted 1 January , 2004 However having 'COPY' or 'REPLACEMENT' stamped across it would, for me, spoil it. I totally agree with you there, Will. After selling my own issued medals for the price of a night out a few years ago (when I was young(er) and stupid(er)), I had contented myself at such events as Remembrance Day services by wearing the identical medals that had been issued to someone else (I could never bring myself to "erase" and rename them). Recently, I obtained a couple of replacements (copies, but not marked as such) that I had stamped with my own details, thereby making as near as possible, my "own" set again. I wouldn't have purchased them had they been marked "copy". The actual wearing of "Jewellers copies" on uniforms (especially of gallantry medals) has been quite common throughout time. Take the Germans in WW2, for example. Most of the Iron Cross 1st Class and Knight's Crosses that were encountered on service uniforms were actually Jeweller's copies, with the originals being safely boxed up back home. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted 1 January , 2004 Share Posted 1 January , 2004 A friend of mine recently acquired a Military Medal named to the unit he concentrates on - the 26th New Brunswick Battalion,CEF. It is stamped "Triplicate", and appears to have been issued in the 1950's. I had heard of duplicate awards but this is the first triplicate I have seen. Not exactly a copy, but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Brown Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 and use the authorities (eBay I agree with David. A high percentage of copy medals are now on the market including memorial plaques which are not marked copy. I support RT's course of action where Ebay is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Burns Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 I think we may be digressing. If we check the photos on e-bay this particular star seems to be a crudely cast copy of an original, leading me to believe that this gentleman's star was not lost it was simply copied. If one wishes to purchase copies and then name them to a relative that's perfectly fine but how about having them engraved by a jeweller so that the naming does not exactly correspond to the original. Also how about not selling them on e-bay, too! Take care, Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest newworldmember Posted 7 January , 2004 Share Posted 7 January , 2004 Hi, David: A pal of mine recently told me about these copied medals which are named. He indicated they are extremely good copies, and bases this opinion on what he has heard from the U. K.'s most prestigious auction house that specializes in war medals (Dixon, Noonan, Webb). Apparently, no one in authority in Great Britain appears to give a damn about this, which is pretty bad when you consider this is forgery. I suppose the only way to detect a fake is to put it through some sort of a metalurgy test to determine its age, but I assume that would be a costly procedure. I have a few British WWI medal groups, some with high decorations. The guy I mention above has a huge collection, and he stands to lose in a great big way if he ever wants top get rid of them while these fakes are around. They're not just faking 1914 nd 1914-15 Stars. I understand they're copying other campaign medals and also decorations. Might bad, isn't it? All the best, Cory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorts Posted 7 January , 2004 Share Posted 7 January , 2004 My tuppence worth: Guidelines that I see are reasonable are that: i) No-one should be naming / re-naming medals unless they are the original recipient / issuing authority. This I consider to include original recipients renaming anothers medal, or naming a copy for use as a replacement / dress set. ii) Replica medals should be marked 'copy', however, this can be done in an out of sight place when displayed, e.g. the rim. A while ago I asked peoples opinion on the forum about naming medals. I have in my possession two WW2 groups to my grandfather's cousin and his brother. Both were KiA during WW2 and whilst the medals were kept (all together in a box for me to inherit along with cap badges etc.) the card boxes and condolence slips were not. I know which group belongs to which individual but when I'm gone the medals will be un-named and thus it may only take one generation for the recipients of the medals to be forgotten. I sounded out the idea of naming the medals on the forum to give those who inherit the medals a fighting chance of knowing who they were to. The resounding response was not to, have opinions changed? Rgds, Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Lines Posted 11 January , 2004 Share Posted 11 January , 2004 Not all copies are of poor quality either. A couple of years ago I saw a bag full of 14 Star copies for sale. They were very good and certainly would have fooled me if put in with a pair. As medal prices rise so will the amount of forgeries on the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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