Grenades, French, For the lobbing of

[sjustice]

'lo all,

I made these from the illustrations in the wonderfully obvious, "Notes on the Automatic Time Fuse Grenade - Model 1916", translated from the French editions of August 22nd 1916 and March 16th 1917. As reprinted by the US Army War College 1918.

The quotation and drawings are accurate as presented in the pamphlet although they don't appear as such in the publication.

The instructions include, "All unexploded grenades must be considered dangerous" and (my personal favourite), "If by inadvertance a grenadier should drop a 'cocked' grenade, he must keep cool, pick up the grenade, and throw it far away before it explodes."

Enjoy.

SMJ

[Martin Bennitt]

"Even the most untoward incidents such as the wholesale explosion of grenades did not diminish the men's determination. In a single regiment of the 68th Division, 187 men were wounded from this cuse on their way up to the line. There weere many such accidents that day, largely attributable to British Mills grenades, which the French did not know how to carry, the safety pin getting detached in their pockets or haversacks."

E.L. Spears, 'Prelude to Victory', on the Nivelle offensive.

cheers Martin B

[sjustice]

"Armand thanked the stars that the acronym, "RTFM", had been translated for him by the Padre"

Kind Regards,

SMJ

[truthergw]

Was there any indication as to how far away would suffice? The grenades going off in haversacks must have led to a jolly time, going up to the front, surrounded on all sides by potentially lethal webbing. Very open order, I should think.

[sjustice]

Was there any indication as to how far away would suffice? The grenades going off in haversacks must have led to a jolly time, going up to the front, surrounded on all sides by potentially lethal webbing. Very open order, I should think.

'lo Tom,

No, actually safe lobbing distance is not stated. "Far away" seems to be the accepted norm. In considering the following...

"If a body of troops happens to camp on a place where there are unexploded grenades lying about, they must be removed as soon as possible. To do this, all the men must take cover while one man proceeds to remove one grenade after another, possibly marking them beforehand by a twig or any other object."

...I would suggest reading, "remove", as, "lob far away", and deleting the bit about marking them!

Kind Regards,

SMJ

[Max Poilu]

How far away?

Lethal radius of the casing of defensive fragmentation grenades such as the F1 (here) Mills, German Kugel etc was around 100 yards (perhaps twice this distance if you are unlucky). Offensive grenades - German Stick, French OF1 etc rely on blast and are designed to be lethal in the immediate area.

I posted some pics and info on the F1 in this topic if of interest:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...&hl=grenade

[sjustice]

How far away?

Lethal radius of the casing of defensive fragmentation grenades such as the F1 (here) Mills, German Kugel etc was around 100 yards (perhaps twice this distance if you are unlucky).

Absolutely right, Max

The grenades we are talking about here are extremely crude compared to the fragmentation grenades seen today. It was truly lethal to an obscene distance as the large chunks of casing flew off to even 300 yards or more. A true "bomb".

So the main problem was that no matter how far you threw one you were never out of the lethal radius!

Of course the useful addition to the notes should have read something along the lines of, "the grenadier should make sure that there is something solid between himself and the blast."

Sadly overlooked.

Kind Regards,

SMJ

[Max Poilu]

Indeed, that's why they are termed defensive of course (which always sounds a bit odd...) - they must be thrown from a place of cover unlike the offensive grenade which may be thrwon in the open, confines of a trench etc. Again some more in this post:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...mp;#entry624285

Different grenades were transported in different ways - Mills were fuzed at the Front, early percussion ignition F1's were too but the automatic Billant type F1's as used by US forces as above were delivered live and fuzed.

[sjustice]

Hi Max,

Thanks very much for the input and also the images posted in the thread mentioned above. That is quite a collection of metal and I certainly know where to go with any questions regarding lobbed munitions!

Do you have any documentation which shows detailed drawings of '14-'18 grenades/parts thereof whole or in cutaway?

Kind Regards.

SMJ

[J T Gray]

Do you have any documentation which shows detailed drawings of '14-'18 grenades/parts thereof whole or in cutaway?

Anthony Saunders published a book called "Weapons of the TRench War 1914-1918" which has lots - mostly from patent drawings, so covers the common-or-garden Mills, and the various madcap devices as well.

Adrian

[Max Poilu]

Hi Simon,

Posted quite a lot over the years (might be some pics in this search) but this cut and paste of the answer to a similar question should help:

I can help you with a few references:

Specifically with regard to Great War grenades (my main interest) there are a number of volumes you need to look out for.

Delhomme 'Grenades de la Grande Guerre' - really my bible, three volumes (French language) to cover French/British/German were originally produced in tiny runs and virtually impossible to find. A fascimilie edition is sometimes available.

The Grenade Recognition Manual - Volume 2 - British and Commonwealth by Darryl Lynn. Available from Darryl's website.

An Introduction to British Grenades by Skennerton.

Grenades and their uses - AIF manual. A reprint of the original 1916 (I believe) manual by R. Law.

Weapons of the trench war 1914 - 1918 by Anthony Saunders. See Amazon.

Identification manual of British grenades by Rick Landers.

There is also the Treatise on Ammunition reprint by Naval and Military. More general ordnance and another bible but very expensive.

The other books to look out for with regard to ordnance are any by Ian Hogg - he has published a great deal on the subject.

Howard Williamson's Collectors and Researchers guide to the Great War has an ok section on grenades, fuzes and shells - some errors though.

There are other harder to find books but the above will cover most Great War categories.

Regarding pics I have a series of cutaway drawings from contemporary originals like these examples below - showing the F1, German 1913 rifle grenade and British No.15 (Ball, Loos pattern emergency). The best source is Delhomme and Saunders: