Aircraft lost off Matruth Dec 1915

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I was reading a personal account of the Senussi campaign and this was in a diary.

"We were watering the horses at the old stone troughs near the beach when one of our own spotting planes came down in the water. If had been short of petrol. Immediately it hit the water the sailors dived from the monitor and pulled the officers out of their seats. they would have been drowned otherwise as their machine dived right under only the tail part being visible."

THis would have happened around the the end of Dec 1915 between the 13th and 25th Dec in the harbour of Matruth Egypt.

Are you aware of any planes being lost during that time to ID what and who's plane it maybe?

Cheers

S.B

[horatio2]

Not in your date bracket but could this be it? From "RN Shipboard Aircraft Developments 1912-1931" by Dick Cronin:-

Early on 11th [Feb 1916] Short 184 [serial] 849 was hoisted out [from HMS BEN-MY-CHREE] in the Gulf of Sollum for a photographic reconnaissance of Sidi Barrani and Sollum, preparatory to an advance against the Senussi by the Western Frontier Force from Mersa Matruh. 849 suffered engine failure after take off and was forced to ditch. Fortunately the aircrew were picked up by HM Trawler CHARLSIN..." The aircraft capsized and was lost.

[centurion]

Whilst cavalry men are not renowned for their abilities at ship recognition one suspects that they might be able to distinguish between a monitor and a trawler which would sugest that these are two seperate incidents

[michaeldr]

Centurion,

while I agree that the date is a bit of a problem, as I read

quote: "sailors dived from the monitor and pulled the officers out of their seats"

and quote: "the aircrew were picked up by HM Trawler CHARLSIN"

these two statements are not necessarily contradictory

especially if Steve is correct and it was "in the harbour of Matruth Egypt"

probably the crews of more than one vessel became involved in the rescue

but the date remains a problem

regards

Michael

[horatio2]

Further to my previous, the loss of Ser. 849 is summarised thus in "RN Aircraft Serials & Units":- 11 Feb 1916. Petrol failure, forced landing in heavy sea, capsized and lost off Sollum (Flight Commander CHK Edmonds DSO and Lt R Erskine Childers [yes, him!] ) saved by HMT Charlsen [sic].

As regards date, it was in early 1916 that Sanusi tribesmen invaded Egypt. I think South African forces countered them and secured the border by March/April 1916.

[centurion]

Still think these are two seperate incidents - "the Gulf of Sollum" and "heavy seas" suggest that was not Matruth harbour. In fact there are no common references in either account.

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

Nice little bit but your right the dates a bit off even if the story line is very close.

The soldiers were unloading stores and working on the harbour at Matruth between the 13 to the 24th Dec before moving into action of the 25th Dec 1915 but by Feb 1916 they were back with there units on the Suez Canel. Sollum was under Senussi ocupation and we only had Matruth.

I was aware that a flight of 17 Sqn RFC was at Matruth and Alexandria at that time suporting the WFF could it be one of there's and not RNAS?

As to the Monitor I believe HMS Clematis was in Matruth Harbour and maybe the ship mentioned?

Cheers

S.B

[horatio2]

HMS CLEMATIS was an AZALEA Class sloop. There was never a monitor of that name. The date remains a problem. Can any RFC specialist provide the solution to this ditching?

[Dolphin]

Steve

This isn't the answer, but it might be steering us in the right direction. A detachment from 'A' Flight of No 14 Sqn RFC, with two BE 2c aeroplanes, was sent to Matruh shortly before 5 December 1915, and commenced observation missions on that date. The RFC from Matruh observed for the guns of HMS Clematis when Senussi positions were shelled on 22 December 1915.

Alas, I haven't found mention of the aircrew names, nor the aircraft serial number of the machine, involved in your incident.

Regards

Gareth

[centurion]

It's begining to look as if there was an RFC ditching in the harbour in 1915 by a BE2c spotting for Clematis (acting in a monitor role) and an RNAS ditching at sea in 1916 by a Short seaplane from the sea plane carrier Ben-my-chree on an unsuccessful photo recce flight.

[centurion]

There is a despatch from Vice Admiral Pierce in Dec 1915 complaining that Clematis is being asked to do too much in support of shore operations at Matruth. She was the only sloop he had available. Given this it is very likely that Clematis is indeed the 'monitor' refered to. As I said earlier cavalry men are not renowned for ship recognition skills and I guess any ship involved in providing supporting fire was a monitor to them. The same despatch refers to a telegram about the the army's need for aircraft having been sent earlier but no detail is given - possibly asking for a replacement?

The despatch also indicates that although trawlers have been sent to support his force they have not yet arrived (which would make it unlikely that a trawler was involved in recuing the airmen in the Dec 1915 ditching)

[stevenbecker]

Gareth,

Mate the British Offical War history lists the Flight with the WFF was from 17 Sqn RFC possible A Flight under Captain the Lord George Wellesley.

Can you confirm 17 Sqn or 14 Sqn as there is some confict of numbers?

Thanks to all for your input its been very interesting in chasing this plane.

Cheers

S.B

[Dolphin]

Steve

My source was Volume V of The War in the Air, and I've attached the relevant pages below. The mention of No 14 Sqn being involved in the operations against the Senussi is backed up by the authoritative RAF Squadrons, which shows a detachment from No 14 at Matruh in December 1915.

However, references can be wrong . . .

Cheers

Gareth

[centurion]

Given that in Dec 1915 Ben-my-chree was still operating on the other side of the Med the crash witnessed in that month refered to at the begining of this thread would have to be one of the BE2cs spotting for Clematis. The date matches that in the pierce despatch when this ship was supporting shore operations ar Matruth. As far as I can ascertain none of the BE2c is service in Egypt at that time were fited with wireless so signaling to the ship would have to be visual which might explain why the aircraft was over the harbour

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

Thanks I see the 17 Sqn refered to another area not around Matruth where 14 Sqn was operating.

I was also sent this bit;

"According to the book 'Winged Promises'-A History of No 14 Squadron, RAF:

"B Flight was sent to the Western Desert with troops and armoured cars because Senussi tribesman were threatening to invade. Two BE.2cs had been tranported to El Daba (100 miles west of Alexandria) in December 1915 and from there they were flown a further 80 miles west to Mersa Matruh. Captain F.H. Jenkins was in command with four officers and unknown number of other ranks."

A photograph of one of the aircraft is available on the AWM site. ID number CO4958-"A British scout aeroplane, and a part of the beach, which was used as a landing ground for aeroplanes at Matruh, on the Mediterranean Sea."

This confirms that 14 Sqn was at Matruth but no mention of any lost aircraft?

But it does add to our knowage as my finished articale on the Senussi Campaign will now have to be redone as I had the wrong RFC Sqn at Matruth, glad I hadn't sent it in yet.

S.B