Corporal Reginald Arthur Lucas DSM

[tharkin56]

I am researching Reginald Arthur Lucas DSM one of 264 plaques in the war memorial park, coventry. Details as below can anyone add anything I have been unable to clarify which submarine and when ?

Lucas, Reginald Arthur. (D.S.M) Corporal. 202927, Royal Air Force who was lost at sea, presumed drowned age 21 on the 27th April 1918. Son of Thomas Henry and Fanny Francis Lucas of 6,Gordon Street, Coventry. Born 8th August, 1896 at Coventry; resided at 6 Gordon Street; Mechanic; Enlisted in 1915. Remembered Hollybrook Memorial Southampton

Locally reported

Graphic: Leading mechanic Arthur Reginald Lucas aged 22 of the RNAS who was lost at sea whilst engaged with seven enemy aeroplanes. He joined up 3.5 years ago and was decorated with the DSM for sinking a german submarine. His parenst and sister resides at 6 gordon street, Coventry and the greatest sympathy is felt for them in their bereavement

Many thanks

[welshdoc]

Two odd things the first is that his DSM is not mentioned on his CWGC commemoration and the second is prehaps less odd but I cannot find him in the LG. Stebie down to you mate!!

[per ardua per mare per terram]

His service register is online, that should give the LG date for his DSM, and it should also be on his RAF service record offline in AIR 79/1831. If you want more details the DSM recommendation file should still exist; there are also medal rolls for the DSM in ADM171/61 and ADM 171/75; his campaign medals will be listed on the alphabetical medal roll in ADM 171/108.

Name Lucas, Reginald Arthur Official Number: F2927 Place of Birth: Coventry Date of Birth: 08 August 1896

Catalogue reference ADM 188/565

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1

[Dolphin]

According to The War in the Air Volume IV, the submarine was UC-72, which was attacked and sunk on 22 September 1917 by a Curtiss H-12 flown by FSLs N A Magor and C E S Lusk, with CPO E A Boyd and LM R A Lucas. However, later research identified the submarine in question as UB-32.

Cpl R A Lucas DSM was killed in action while flying in Curtiss H-12 8677, from Felixstowe, together with Capt Norman Ansley Magor DSC, from Montreal, Canada, and AMI J G Stathearn DSM, from Glasgow, of the RAF and Ensign S Potter, US Navy, on 25 April 1918. The Curtiss was shot down in an action with aircraft from SFL I; a victory was credited to Oblt zur See Friedrich Christiansen, the 6th of his eventual 13.

I hope that this helps.

Gareth

[tharkin56]

According to The War in the Air Volume IV, the submarine was UC-72, which was attacked and sunk on 22 September 1917 by a Curtiss H-12 flown by FSLs N A Magor and C E S Lusk, with CPO E A Boyd and LM R A Lucas. However, later research identified the submarine in question as UB-32.

Cpl R A Lucas DSM was killed in action while flying in Curtiss H-12 8677, from Felixstowe, together with Capt Norman Ansley Magor DSC, from Montreal, Canada, and AMI J G Stathearn DSM, from Glasgow, of the RAF and Ensign S Potter, US Navy, on 25 April 1918. The Curtiss was shot down in an action with aircraft from SFL I; a victory was credited to Oblt zur See Friedrich Christiansen, the 6th of his eventual 13.

I hope that this helps.

Gareth

Thanks for your help guys I do have a photo of him if anyone wants it e mailed curiusly of the 264 men remembered in the park only two were flyers, the other being Kenneth Purnell Barford shot down by the Red Baron

his 72nd victim. I do not have and cannot find a picture of Kenneth any ideas ?

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

The UBoat UB 32 was reported as such;

22 Sep, 1917 - Possibly sunk by bombs dropped from RNAS aircraft at 5145N 0205E. 24 dead (all hands lost).

Type UB II

Shipyard Blohm & Voss, Hamburg (Werk 256)

Ordered 22 Jul, 1915 Laid down

Launched 4 Dec, 1915 Commissioned 10 Apr, 1916

Commanders 11 Apr, 1916 - 4 Dec, 1916 Ludwig Karl Sahl

5 Dec, 1916 - 24 Feb, 1917 Karl Ruprecht

25 Feb, 1917 - 5 Aug, 1917 Max Viebeg

6 Aug, 1917 - 22 Sep, 1917 Benno von Ditfurth

Career 16 patrols

25 May, 1916 - 24 Feb, 1917 Baltic Flotilla

24 Feb, 1917 - 22 Sep, 1917 Flandern Flotilla

Successes 22 ships sunk for a total of 42.887 tons.

3 ships damaged for a total of 18.742 tons.

As can be seen UB 72 was not the boat;

UB 72

Type UB III

Shipyard Vulcan, Hamburg (Werk 96)

Ordered 23 Sep, 1916 Laid down

Launched 30 Jul, 1917 Commissioned 9 Sep, 1917

Commanders 9 Sep, 1917 - 1 Mar, 1918 Walter Creutzfeld

2 Mar, 1918 - 12 May, 1918 Friedrich Träger

Career 5 patrols

25 Apr, 1918 - 12 May, 1918 II Flotilla

28 Oct, 1918 - 25 Apr, 1918 V Flotilla

Successes 5 ships sunk for a total of 10.551 tons.

1 ship damaged for a total of 3.358 tons.

Fate 12 May, 1918 - Torpedoed by HM Sub D4 at 5008N 0241W. 34 dead, unknown number of survivors.

S.B

[Dolphin]

I do not have and cannot find a picture of Kenneth any ideas ?

I think that you'll be very fortunate to find a photograph of Lt K P Barford. The authors of Under the Guns of the Red Baron obviously tried very hard to find images of as many of Manfred von Ricthofen's victories as possible, but they didn't find one of your man.

Good luck

Gareth

[Michael Lowrey]

A note about how the identity of the submarine was "established" -- during the war, the Royal Navy gathered intelligence on U-boat operations via radio intercepts, interviews from survivors, captured documents, spies, etc. From this they learned about when German submarines were lost (went missing). The RN then matched attacks on submarines they were aware of against against these lost German submarines. By 1919, the Royal Navy was awarding prize money for sinking specific submarines.

Only one problem: the Royal Navy’s knowledge of U-boat operations was far from complete. Especially for the Flanders-based boats, the RN often didn’t know exactly when the lost boats had sailed or what their exact assigned patrol areas were. As a result, many of the RN's attributions were simply wrong.

In this case, the wartime sinking attribution is that September 22 attack was against UC 72. This is obviously unworkable, as UC 72 sailed on August 12, 1917 and is now known to have been active through August 20 in the Bay of Biscay. Flanders-based UCII type submarines only stayed out for 12 -17 days typically; their record patrol length from Flanders operating through Dover is only 20 days.

The German official history suggests that a homebound UB 32 could have been the victim on September 22 but that the attack might also have been a against a different boat and not fatal. It also attributes a ship damaged and another ship sunk for her final patrol, which began on September 10.

Recent Oliver Lörscher and I have reexamined these sinkings and in all likelihood they should be credited to other submarines. In addition, sonar sweeps have not detected a submarine wreck near the location where UB 32 was supposedly sunk on September 22. There also was some Royal Navy mining off the Flanders coast at about the time UB 32 disappeared.

That Lucas' plane sank UB 32 cannot be completely rejected, but the attribution is for now rather suspicious. There's more work to do, so perhaps soon we'll known one way or the other...

Best wishes,

Michael

[tharkin56]

A note about how the identity of the submarine was "established" -- during the war, the Royal Navy gathered intelligence on U-boat operations via radio intercepts, interviews from survivors, captured documents, spies, etc. From this they learned about when German submarines were lost (went missing). The RN then matched attacks on submarines they were aware of against against these lost German submarines. By 1919, the Royal Navy was awarding prize money for sinking specific submarines.

Only one problem: the Royal Navy’s knowledge of U-boat operations was far from complete. Especially for the Flanders-based boats, the RN often didn’t know exactly when the lost boats had sailed or what their exact assigned patrol areas were. As a result, many of the RN's attributions were simply wrong.

In this case, the wartime sinking attribution is that September 22 attack was against UC 72. This is obviously unworkable, as UC 72 sailed on August 12, 1917 and is now known to have been active through August 20 in the Bay of Biscay. Flanders-based UCII type submarines only stayed out for 12 -17 days typically; their record patrol length from Flanders operating through Dover is only 20 days.

The German official history suggests that a homebound UB 32 could have been the victim on September 22 but that the attack might also have been a against a different boat and not fatal. It also attributes a ship damaged and another ship sunk for her final patrol, which began on September 10.

Recent Oliver Lörscher and I have reexamined these sinkings and in all likelihood they should be credited to other submarines. In addition, sonar sweeps have not detected a submarine wreck near the location where UB 32 was supposedly sunk on September 22. There also was some Royal Navy mining off the Flanders coast at about the time UB 32 disappeared.

That Lucas' plane sank UB 32 cannot be completely rejected, but the attribution is for now rather suspicious. There's more work to do, so perhaps soon we'll known one way or the other...

Best wishes,

Michael

Michael

Many thanks for your input I have one other guy who has a plaque in the park and involves a submarine details as follows

James William Randall,a leading stoker on board HMS Arabis which was ttorpedoed by a German destroyers off Dogger Bank in the North Sea on the 11th February 1916. HMS Arabis was in service as a mine sweeper and escort duties for less then 3 months being launched on the 6th November 1915. James was the son of John William and Mary Ann Randall of 23 Stratford Street, Stoke, Coventry and was born on the 6th December 1891 at Finedon, Northants. James is remembered on the Plymouth Naval Memorial, this memorial commemorates 7,251 sailors of the First World War. He was the brother of George Frederick who died on the 5th May 1917 at the Western Front and also has a plaque in the War Memorial Park.

Any assistance once agian gratefully received

[per ardua per mare per terram]

His service register can be downloaded at Kew for free, or online for £3.50:

Name Randall, James William

Official Number: K8899

Place of Birth: Wellingborough, Northamptonshire

Date of Birth: 07 December 1890

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1

[Michael Lowrey]

I don't have all the details of the Feb. 10/11 1916 action in which Arabis was sunk, but it involved German destroyers B 109, B 110, G 103, B 97, B 111, B 112 of the II. T.-Flottille. Those were the most powerful destroyers in te German fleet and were often used as a raiding force.

Best wishes,

Michael

[James A Pratt III]

There is an old Proflie out on these ships that I believe does have a brief account of this action.

[Bob H]

This is the paragraph from the Warship Profile on B110 that James referred to:

On the evening of 10 February eight groups of three to four torpedo boats proceeded in line abreast with the light cruiser Pillau and some more boats 20 miles behind; Flotilla II formed the three groups on the right wing. Shortly before midnight the outer group (three G-boats) sighted four darkened ships which they took for light cruisers. However, they were minesweeping sloops of the new ‘Flower’ class of 1,270 tons, a speed of 17 knots, armed with two 4in guns and some smaller ones. Nineteen torpedoes were launched at them but only Arabis was hit. She remained stopped, firing vigorously, but sank after more hits. The other sloops got away, and boats of Flotilla II saved the Commanding Officer and 30 members of the crew of Arabis.

Regards

Bob

[tharkin56]

This is the paragraph from the Warship Profile on B110 that James referred to:

On the evening of 10 February eight groups of three to four torpedo boats proceeded in line abreast with the light cruiser Pillau and some more boats 20 miles behind; Flotilla II formed the three groups on the right wing. Shortly before midnight the outer group (three G-boats) sighted four darkened ships which they took for light cruisers. However, they were minesweeping sloops of the new ‘Flower’ class of 1,270 tons, a speed of 17 knots, armed with two 4in guns and some smaller ones. Nineteen torpedoes were launched at them but only Arabis was hit. She remained stopped, firing vigorously, but sank after more hits. The other sloops got away, and boats of Flotilla II saved the Commanding Officer and 30 members of the crew of Arabis.

Regards

Bob

many thanks to all

[tharkin56]

many thanks to all

Picture of R. A Lucas