First recorded meeting in the air?

[Trebrys]

Does anyone know what was the first recorded meeting or sighting between enemy aircraft during the First World War?

Trebrys.

[CSG_Smolders]

The closet I could find to answer your question, according to an early publishing of “The Guinness History of Air Warfare” by David Brown, Christopher Shores and Kenneth Macksey:

“…the first German Forced down came to earth on 25 August when threatened by three close flying British pilots in France” I assume the year was 1914 but I cannot be sure as the year is not stated in the text.

[Dolphin]

Trebrys

The first British combat in the air was a German Taube two seater forced to land on 25 August 1914 after a duel with three unarmed aircraft of No 2 Sqn RFC. The German crew fled into woodland after landing and were pursued without success by Lt H D Harvey-Kelly and Lt W H C Mansfield, who had landed nearby, probably in RE 1 608.

The next day Junior Captain Petr Nesterov, XI Corps Squadron of the Imperial Russian Air Service, flying Morane Saulnier Type G No 281, rammed an Albatros two seater flown by Feldwebel Franz Malina and Oberleutnant Baron Friedrich Rosenthal of the Austro-Hungarian Army Air Service over Volya-Vysotska. All three airmen were killed.

Unfortunately, I don't have any information on any French air actions that might pre-date the above two incidents.

I hope that this helps.

Gareth

[centurion]

The Shell book of Firsts quotes a Reuter's dspatch dated 15th Aug 1914 "a French aeroplane yesterday encounterd a German aeoroplane. The French pilot chased the german firing a Browning. The German aviator did not reply but fled" So this would make it 14th August 1914.

The first ever air combat was reputedly in 1911 between two American mercenary pilots flying for diferent sides in the Mexican civil war, both pilots flying Curtiss pusher biplanes, both armed with Luger automatics and both firing with their jackets partially over the gun (to avoid ejected rounds hitting the pusher prop). This has been described in the American magasine Ealy Birds devoted to pre WW1 military aviation but doubt has been expressed in some quarters as to its accuracy

The first shooting down in air combat was on 5th Oct 1914 when Joseph Frantz and his observer named Quenault shot down an Aviatik two seater with a Hotchkisss. The August 1914 british even quoted in theis Thread may have been August 22nd 1914 when Lt. A Strange (pilot) and Lt Penn Gaskell in a Henri Farman engaged an Albatross (probably a B1) firing several bursts but failed to be able to close with it. On 22nd Nov 1914 Strange with a Lt F G Small flying an Avro scored the first British victory shooting down another Albatross the crew of which were taken prisoner.

[Martin Bennitt]

The

The first ever air combat was reputedly in 1911 ....

The first ever air combat was surely the 1808 duel over Paris between two Frenchmen in balloons armed with blunderbusses, one of whom apparently shot the other down.

The duel was 'remade' in 'Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines'

cheers Martin B

[centurion]

I have a feeling that may be apochrythal. Firstly it would have been extremely difficult to shoot down a hydrogen balloon with a blunderbuss (the gas is at the same pressure as the outside air - thats why the neck of a hydrogen balloon was open to allow pressure to equalise as the balloon rose or fell) so you couldn't 'pop it' like a child's helium balloon and unless the blunderbuss was firing Buckinham rounds (rather than buck shot) you wouldn't set it alight. All you would do is allow some gas to escape quite slowly and the balloon would descend gracefully. Disasters that caused late 18th Century or early 19th century hydrogen balloons to crash were caused either by the original 18th century practice of sealing the neck (see below) so that with a balloon rising rapidly pressure would not be equalised using the valve at the top of the envelope and it could explode (in practice only the ballooons of the French Army Corps d'Aerostatier had sealed necks and these were tethered and so could not rise rapidly), pilot error (in at least one instance some one accidentally pulled the wrong cord and activated the rip panel that allows all the gas to escape at once - this was normally only used when touching down in extreme weather conditions), design failure (e.g the amazing combined hot air and hydrogen balloon - I kid you not) and freak accident (one balloon was hit by lightning). It was even more difficult to shoot down a hot air balloon with a blunderbuss. Secondly generating enough hydrogen for a balloon was, in 1808 a very lengthy and expensive business. At that time the process consited of passing steam over beds of iron heated to red hot temperature. Gas cylinders did not exist. Hydrogen was expensive and difficult to come by. The French Army Corp d'Aerostatier mainteined their four balloons inflated at all times as filling was so expensive and time consuming (they were disbanded when Napoleon returned from Egypt) The 'golden' age of hydrogen ballooning did not begin until some time after the End of the Napoleonic Wars when new more efficient methods of hydrogen productionwere developed - its therefore very unlikely that thre were any privately owned balloons in Paris in 1808. Napoleon was actually quite anti balloon , for reasons too lengthy to go into here) and actually discouraged their development.

I hear a pedantry alarm going off so I'll stop right there.

[Martin Bennitt]

I must admit I can only find ephemeral references to it, with no details. I will keep looking but for the moment will concede it is just hot air

cheers Martin B

[Trebrys]

Many thanks to you all for your input.

The reason I asked was because someone told me that Strange and a Charles Longcroft had been the first two to chase after an enemy aircraft but that the foe had beaten a rapid retreat.

I was just checking to see whether anyone else had heard this. Thanks again.

Trebrys.

[centurion]

Both Louis Strange's own biography (Flying Rebel) and the Shell Book of Firsts agree that the first encounter between British and German was the one on the 22nd Aug 1914 with Strange and Penn Gaskell flying an (unofficially) Lewis Gun armed Henri Farman F20. The two acounts differ as to the identy of the German aircraft one refering to it as a Taube and the other as an Aviatik. However as Taubes were built by a wide range of German (and KuK) manufacturers including Aviatik its quite possible that the accounts are both correct.

Incidentally In one account Penn Gaskell was also Strange,s observer in a Lewis gun armed Avro 504 when they shot down the RFC's first victim in November 1914 whereas another has F G Small as his observer!

I'm afraid that the French/German encounter I refered to in an earlier posting has to be the 1st WW1 air encounter.