Andrew Upton Posted 23 May , 2007 Share Posted 23 May , 2007 Just a quick question, but can anyone confirm on which sleeve a wreathed MG qualification badge would be worn, and how high/where on the sleeve it would be worn? Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCLI Posted 23 May , 2007 Share Posted 23 May , 2007 Just a quick question, but can anyone confirm on which sleeve a wreathed MG qualification badge would be worn, and how high/where on the sleeve it would be worn? Thanks in advance. Left sleeve - see pic regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 23 May , 2007 Author Share Posted 23 May , 2007 Left sleeve - see pic regards Thanks for that, left sleeve was what I thought it was, but just how high it should be worn from the sleeve cuff still eludes me - from your picture, it looks like it should be about 4 or 5 inches up or therabouts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 24 May , 2007 Share Posted 24 May , 2007 Halfway between the elbow and the wrist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 24 May , 2007 Share Posted 24 May , 2007 Another example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 24 May , 2007 Share Posted 24 May , 2007 Interesting one - I think we need Grumpy here or at least his book to hand. I would say probably an MG instructor with the badge above the chevrons; but in a pioneer battalion with those collar badges? Be interesting to see what is on his shoulder straps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 24 May , 2007 Share Posted 24 May , 2007 Squirrel, 20/4208/325002 Sgt. G.S. Souness 1/8th Royal Scots(Pioneer Battalion to the 51st(Highland) Division. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 24 May , 2007 Share Posted 24 May , 2007 Thanks for the info - bet that photo would fox a few people - was I right about the MG Instructor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 24 May , 2007 Share Posted 24 May , 2007 Squirrel, Well this is him as a L/Cpl circa 1910/11. The only documentary evidence says when he was killed(22 March 1918) he was the last but one member of the Maxim Gun Section that went to France io 1914 and when he sent either his 1915 or 1916 Christmas Card he was a member of the Battalion's Lewis Gun Section.So I've no concrete evidence to suggest he was an Instructor George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 24 May , 2007 Share Posted 24 May , 2007 Unless...........the qualification badge was worn above the chevrons on the left sleeve for a qualified machine gunner NCO and over the chevrons on the right sleeve for an instructor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 24 May , 2007 Share Posted 24 May , 2007 Squirrel, As you said earlier,where's Grumpy when we need him George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 24 May , 2007 Share Posted 24 May , 2007 Right. He's the chap to make sense of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 24 May , 2007 Author Share Posted 24 May , 2007 A very fine photo of Sergeant Souness, I spotted it on another thread, and was interested as the MG badge appears to be identical to one sat in front of me as I'm typing! As far as I'm aware, any qualification badge over rank stripes means the man was a qualified Instructor in that field. If it had been on the left sleeve, it would mean he was only qualified in that field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 25 May , 2007 Share Posted 25 May , 2007 Andrew, He was scruffy as well,unfortunately it's not clear enough to see the Badges on his arm George(Nephew) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 May , 2007 Share Posted 25 May , 2007 There is no provision for the exact position of the 'skill-at-arms' MG in wreath on lower left cuff because it could be worn in combination with other badges eg. good conduct badge, rifle marksman, signaller to name but a few [also, at one time, with cavalry skill badges]. The upper LEFT wearing is unorthodox: an instructor would always be entitled to the skill-at-arms badge but should never wear it, and would wear his MG in wreath upper right sleeve only. However, in war, rules were for the greater part relaxed except in crack regiments. In the light of this, a sergeant insructor transferred to a pioneer battalion of a line regiment might well keep his instructor qualification. Something to be proud of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 25 May , 2007 Share Posted 25 May , 2007 G, Thank you for the clarification and for your information although it may go some way to solving a puzzle. He went to France with the 8th Royal Scots and would have been with the Battalion when it became a Pioneer one in July 1915.The photo I posted of him in France was taken in November 1915. His Papers have been destroyed and I have been trying to resolve the mystery of the four figure TF Number(4208). I appreciate you will be unable to give a definitive answer but assuming he had spent some time as an Instructor.Would this been at Divisional,etc level?If it was this may explain where the additional Number came from as he may have been taken off Battalion Ration Strength whilst an Instructor and renumbered when he rejoined the Battalion. Unfortunately the Studio photo is undated. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john gregory Posted 25 May , 2007 Share Posted 25 May , 2007 G, Thank you for the clarification and for your information although it may go some way to solving a puzzle. He went to France with the 8th Royal Scots and would have been with the Battalion when it became a Pioneer one in July 1915.The photo I posted of him in France was taken in November 1915. His Papers have been destroyed and I have been trying to resolve the mystery of the four figure TF Number(4208). I appreciate you will be unable to give a definitive answer but assuming he had spent some time as an Instructor.Would this been at Divisional,etc level?If it was this may explain where the additional Number came from as he may have been taken off Battalion Ration Strength whilst an Instructor and renumbered when he rejoined the Battalion. Unfortunately the Studio photo is undated. George Hi, Most senior NCO's, ie sergeants, wore their qualification badges above their stripes on both sleeves. I have photo's them wearing LG in a wreath, signallers, MG and also seen a Derbyshire Yeomanry tunic with signallers badges above the stripes. I don't think he is an instructor he is just showing the he is a qualified Machine Gunner. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 25 May , 2007 Share Posted 25 May , 2007 John, You'll note I qualified my observation about him being an Instructor. Clearly he is a qualified gunner, as the 1910/11 photo shows.He went to War as a Cpl(per 1914 Star) and his Obituary states that at the time of his death he was the last but one of the original 1914 Maxim Gun still serving.I would suggest between 1914 and 1918 he had plenty of opportunity to hone his skills. As I said earlier I don't know the date of the photo and the only evidence I have of him being on Home Leave was in May 1916 when he sent a PC to his Sister from Folkestone whilst waiting for the night crossing to France. Whether he was an Instructor at some time is a question that is unlikely ever to be answered, as his Service Papers do not survive.He was, however, renumbered which meant he left and rejoined the Battalion at some time or other.There are no Family stories of him being wounded,etc prior to his death.The 4208 Number does not seem to suggest that he was sequentially renumbered as I know 4585 was issued to a recruit who joined the Battalion in 1913 and his 1914 Star bears his original Number 20.It is,therefore,possible that a block of Numbers were held back for men who temporarily left the Battalion to spend time as Instructors,etc.I do not think,however,that the TF Numbering System would be that advanced so I just offer it as a hypothesis. The true answers were lost in the WW2 Blitz and as we have said on this Forum many times.Why were the records not kept more securely George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 25 May , 2007 Share Posted 25 May , 2007 There is no provision for the exact position of the 'skill-at-arms' MG in wreath on lower left cuff because it could be worn in combination with other badges eg. good conduct badge, rifle marksman, signaller to name but a few [also, at one time, with cavalry skill badges]. Per Clothing regulations 1914 App XVII para 5.----- On Service Dress the lower edge of a "skill at arms" badge will be 6 1/2 inches from the bottom of the sleeve (this is W/O other badges in which case other rules apply). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 25 May , 2007 Share Posted 25 May , 2007 Could it be that this soldier became time expired and joined again in 1914 and this is how he has the two TF numbers? Interesting info on the wearing of the badges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 May , 2007 Share Posted 25 May , 2007 Hi, Most senior NCO's, ie sergeants, wore their qualification badges above their stripes on both sleeves. I have photo's them wearing LG in a wreath, signallers, MG and also seen a Derbyshire Yeomanry tunic with signallers badges above the stripes. I don't think he is an instructor he is just showing the he is a qualified Machine Gunner. John Per Clothing regulations 1914 App XVII para 5.----- On Service Dress the lower edge of a "skill at arms" badge will be 6 1/2 inches from the bottom of the sleeve (this is W/O other badges in which case other rules apply). Difficult trick to see both left and right sleeve of an NCO to show badges above chevrons each side but, yes, possible. As the essence of regulations is always economy, and to issue two badges where one would do seems unlikely, any wearing of instructor badges on both arms seems likely to be down to vanity. Certainly there was a careful distinction between instructor status and skill at arms: I have many photos showing NCOs where this distinction is obvious: some with badge lower left, some with badge upper right, all of same substantive rank. As for Joe, yes, I have the very detailed regulation thank you .... in practice, the war-time tailor had better to do than careful measuerements, and often the soldier had to sew his own badge on I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 25 May , 2007 Share Posted 25 May , 2007 Could it be that this soldier became time expired and joined again in 1914 and this is how he has the two TF numbers? Squirrel, Without sidetracking the Thread unfortunately not His 1914 Star,MIC and Medal Roll all show 20 with a date of entry 5/11/1914. His War and Victory Medals are stamped 4208 and the Medal Roll records 4208/325002. If you can find John Duncan's Web-Site Newbattle at War you should find a copy of a Christmas Card he had printed 1915/1916 bearing the Number 20. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 27 May , 2007 Share Posted 27 May , 2007 I have a photo back in Scotland of my grandfather in Mesopotamia - in light summer tunic. From memory his MG badge on definatly his left sleeve, and I think above his stripes. I'll check it out when I get back. It's a clear picture, as he has his arm turned to show it off. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 27 May , 2007 Share Posted 27 May , 2007 I have the very detailed regulation thank you .... in practice, the war-time tailor had better to do than careful measuerements, and often the soldier had to sew his own badge on I suppose. Undoubtedly, eyeballing the position was common and probably the most common, but to answer the question encompassed in the original series of posts---"Thanks for that, left sleeve was what I thought it was, but just how high it should be worn from the sleeve cuff still eludes me - from your picture, it looks like it should be about 4 or 5 inches up or therabouts..." The most correct answer would be if one wanted to be more precise than eyeballing--- 6 1/2 inches from lower edge of badge to the bottom edge of the sleeve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 28 May , 2007 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2007 Undoubtedly, eyeballing the position was common and probably the most common, but to answer the question encompassed in the original series of posts---"Thanks for that, left sleeve was what I thought it was, but just how high it should be worn from the sleeve cuff still eludes me - from your picture, it looks like it should be about 4 or 5 inches up or therabouts..." The most correct answer would be if one wanted to be more precise than eyeballing--- 6 1/2 inches from lower edge of badge to the bottom edge of the sleeve. Thanks for that Joe, aplogies for the delay in replying to the thread I started, but I fried my computers hard-drive on the 25th and so I'm currently on a borrowed computer until I can get my own fixed! Whilst most badging was done only on a rough basis (my reenactment MGC division patches are exactly "four fingers!" below the seam where the epaulette meets the sleeve), I wanted to get the badge position spot on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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