MvR lives!

[fitzee]

Here's one I've often pondered I think Adrian on this forum once said Richthofen death is maybe the most written about death than anyone else in history.Usually most accounts end with noting his infamous successor was Herman Goering. What would have happened had Richthofen survived the war? What effect would his brilliance as a tactician and leader have had on the Second World War. He quite likely would have had Goerings job. The new film about him in Germany[from what I have read ] suggests by 1918 he was tired of his name being used as propaganda for the German Imperial Air Service and disillusioned with the war effort having scene way to much death and misery... a thoughful and compassionate Rittmeister...hmm.

Thought I would throw it out there, these are the things that keep me up at night!

Fitzee

[centurion]

A novel has already been written in which Richthofen survives, being pulled from the wreckage alive but knocked out with a bullet graze to the head. I won't try and cover the whole book put he goes off on a mission to rescue the Czar with the approval of George V and the Kaiser (which for obvious reasons is kept most secret) flying a specially modified HP 0/400. He doesn't succeed of course but ends up (after many adventures) escaping flying a Sikorsky. He ends the book in 1919 working as an agent for the British secret service as Freddy Richter (this allowed the author to use him in subsequent novels which I have not read) Unfortunately (or fortunately) I can no longer remember either the author or the title (it is over 20 years since I read the book). All highly implausible. I've always thought that Lothar the younger brother was the more interesting character, himself a high scoring ace and without being automatically given the benefit of the doubt when a 'kill' was undecided between two pilots, he seems to have had a sense of humour and quite active in encouraging less experienced pilots (to the extent of yielding credit for a 'kill' if both where involved in the combat). Lothar died in the 1920s in a crash at Hendon airport when he was flying as an airline pilot. Another member of the Richthofen family was actualy responsible for developing the dive bomber tactics used in Poland and France in 1939 and 1940.

BTW Goering did not take over directly from Richthofen, firstly Rienhard took over on Richthofen's death , Richthofen himself had nominated him as his succesor. Reinhard died in a flying accident (effectively the one in the closing scenes of 'The Blue Max' - in the book, not the film). He was suceeded briefly by Udet (who in WW2 did hold a high position in the Luftwaffe until he committed suicide) and only then did Goering take over.

[CROONAERT]

Another member of the Richthofen family was actualy responsible for developing the dive bomber tactics used in Poland and France in 1939 and 1940.

Would that be his cousin (not first cousin, but I'm unsure of the relationship) Wolfram von Richthofen ,who became a Generalfeldmarschall in the Luftwaffe? Another von Richthofen fighter pilot of WW1 I think?

Dave

[fitzee]

Wolfram von Richthofen was Manfred von Richthofen's cousin. On the morning of April 21,1918 Wolfram,22 years old from Barzdorf, had recently[April 8] joined Jasta 11 . He was very much the"new boy' in the squadron and embarking on his first patrol. The Rittmeister had instructed him to stay clear of any action,watch and learn. If a battle began , break off and head for home. Theses were the same instructions given to Wilfred May of 209 squadron by his flight commander, Captain Roy Brown.This was to be Mays second combat patrol. An hour later,over Cerisy the Camels of 209 would tangle with the combined forces of Jasta 11 and Jasta 5. May stayed above the melee but couldn't resist taking a shot at Wolframs blue Triplane that was also circling above. Havng spent his ammo May broke off and dove for home as instructed followed in hot pursuit by Manfred von Richthofen. What followed has been a source of controversy ever since. Both May and Wolfram von Richthofen survived the war. Wolfram was indeed the Luftwaffe Fieldmarshall inWW2 that you mentioned. "Wop" May went on to become one of Canada's most famous "bush pilots' and one of Edmonton Alberta's most celebrated characters! Checkout www.wopmay.com. On the website is a taped interview with May were he recounts his recollection of the famous dogfight.

[CROONAERT]

Thanks for that fitzee.

As to the title of your thread - Richthofen does indeed live on. The present day Luftwaffe's Jagdgeschwader 71 still bears his name.

Dave

[Adrian Roberts]

I've often wondered, not so much what MvRs role would have been, but what would have been his relationship to the Nazis? As a Prussian aristocrat would he have wanted to be associated with them?

Probably none of us like to think of him becoming an ardent Nazi like Goering, but we cannot dismiss the possibilty if Germany's defeat and Versailles had rankled deeply enough. On the other hand, it is surely too much to hope that he would have opposed Germany during WW2, or exiled himself to Switzerland. He would have been too much of a patriotic German for that, with too much of a sense of duty. It was said of Admiral Doenitz that his creed was of absolute loyalty to the German state whatever form it took. It was this loyalty while keeping apart from internal Nazi politics that led Hitler to nominate him as his successor when he longer trusted his Nazi Party inner circle such as Himmler. Maybe Von Richthofen would have been the same. Or, like von Bulow-bothkamp, he may have isolated himself in his castle until the war and then jumped into his Messerschmitt.

Don't forget that Von Richthofen as a dead legend was worth more to the Nazis than a live hero, much as Elvis was worth more to the music industry dead than alive. If MvR had stepped out of line, I doubt that Goering et al would have been too sentimental to arrange an unfortunate accident for the Rot Freiherr

And as to the latest film portraying him as becoming antiwar: I doubt that, but there is a suggestion that by the time of his demise he was suffering from depression and combat stress and was believing the self-fulfulling prophecy that he would not survive the war. So another scenario if he had survived would be the mentally-ill, shadow of his former self.

Adrian

[fitzee]

I've read one account where Goering in 1936,on the subject of his late commanders demise, theorized that Richthofen had been"compelled to make a forced landind in enemy country owing to engine failure.A Canadian pilot Captain A Roy Brown observed the triplane. In ignorance that his opponent was incapable of fighting he took up a position behind the triplane and wounded Richthofen mortally with machinegun fire immediately prior to his landing" From the standpoint of Nazi philosophy, a Richthofen brought down by mechanical failure had legend building virtues much superior than those resulting from simple defeat. Goering handed the victory to Brown by default!

[BlackSeptember1918]

Did Goering do that badly ?. History says yes . In truth he did , and Adolf Galland dammed him in " The First and the Last " .

But up until he ordered the bombing to switch to London during the Canal Kampf ( Battle of Britain ) . Not much could have been better for the Luftwaffe .

He had an air force with a mono wing fighter the equal of any and better than most .

The fighter tactics were so good that all adopted them until the advent of the jet .

He promoted the best young fighter leaders of the day into positions of authority ( Molders / Galland ).

On the negative side he didn't invent any of those things , but what CEO ever does I guess?.

He didn't have a 4 engined long range bomber , but I suppose it could be argued that Blitzkreig didn't require them .

The fighter pilots complained about not being given enough freedom when the escorted bombers . But all nations pilots complained about the same thing for all the war , and the Germans flew " free hunts " in front and above there bomber formations also .

The fighter pilots complained about being turned in " Jabos " ( fighter-bombers) at the end of the Canal Kampf . But history seems to indicate that this would have been the correct tactics from the start ?.

He made plenty of blunders after that time period , but even the best leader would have only been lengthening the time before the force was defeated . Expended on the Eastern Front from ground force defeats and weight of numbers .

All that is offcourse "arguably ". Just trying to play devils advocate .

Manfred might have been a great JG leader , but not the best Luftwaffe leader ? , he never shot down a balloon ( from memory ) and that would have been more of a " bigger picture " role to assume . A bit like Galland was a great Staffelkapitan , but maybe not the best Inspector of Fighters . Dowding was an Art Obs pilot in the Great War wasn't he ?

Manfred seemed to be a very proud man , and maybe he wouldn't have deserved going through the destruction of his country twice . Where as Goering seemed to be more interested in himself than his pilots in both wars . So maybe poetic justice was served that Herman had to go through those two defeats . A bit off the subject , but maybe Goering might have been a better leader had he not been an addict from the wound he sustained in the 1923 Putsch ?

Now if Boelcke had survived ???... Molders did say to Galland on the French coast " you can be the Richthofen of the Luftwaffe .. I wish to be the Boelcke "

Just some dumb thoughts which come to mind .

Phil

Sorry a bit off topic along the way but only erred as I thought is was an interesting observation from Fitzee

[centurion]

Would that be his cousin (not first cousin, but I'm unsure of the relationship) Wolfram von Richthofen ,who became a Generalfeldmarschall in the Luftwaffe? Another von Richthofen fighter pilot of WW1 I think?

Dave

thats the man

[centurion]

Don't forget that Von Richthofen as a dead legend was worth more to the Nazis than a live hero, much as Elvis was worth more to the music industry dead than alive. If MvR had stepped out of line, I doubt that Goering et al would have been too sentimental to arrange an unfortunate accident for the Rot Freiherr

Adrian

Looking at the Blandford Air Aces of the 1914 -18 War its sobering just how many aces on all sides who survived the war were killed in air accidents anyway

[vervos]

Lothar died in the 1920s in a crash at Hendon airport when he was flying as an airline pilot.

Lothar was killed at Fuhlsbüttel flying D1481 from Berlin to Hamburg. He was taking the actress Fern Andra, and the director Georg Blün to a location. Georg also died, while Andra was injured and hospitalized for a long time. In the 1950 she met Lothar's mother. An account of this meeting may be found here

[fitzee]

From a studio press release about the upcoming film"The Red Baron"

Manfred, Freiherr von Richtofen is the most feared and celebrated pilot of the German Luftwaffe in World War I. To him and his companions, air combats are events of sporty nature, technical challenge and honorable acting, ignoring the terrible extent of war. But after falling in love with the nurse Käte, Manfred realizes he is only used for propaganda means. Caught between his disgust for the war, and the responsibility for his fighter wing, von Richthofen sets out to fly again.

Director Nikolai Müllerschön has said:

"A meticulous reconstruction of the Baron's life and the historical setting was not uppermost in mind, that didn't interest me so much. It is more important to see what is relevant for people today. I saw no sense in making the film like a well-researched documentary. However, during my preparation on the film and looking into the story of his life, the man seems to be more like how I thought he should be."

Dosen't sound very promising to me...

Fitzee