celestine47 Posted 12 May , 2007 Share Posted 12 May , 2007 Hello, I know this has little to do with women at war but with women during war and their men too. I wonder how many children were born out of wedlock during the war as the possibility of death was so close a live now attitude would have prevailed and people would not excercise too much caution. I had a reletive who had a child in 1918, the father is not known but I personaly believe that he was a soldier who never came back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borys Posted 12 May , 2007 Share Posted 12 May , 2007 Ahoj! There was an interesting thread about this very subject a couple of months ago. Look for it. Borys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithfazzani Posted 12 May , 2007 Share Posted 12 May , 2007 I have told this story elsewhere on the forum but it bears repeating. As a child I had two elderly "maiden" aunts, grey hair in buns etc. When they died I heard the true story - they had both had illegitimate children from soldiers who died in WW1. My Grandfather who had survived the war and built up a respectable and profitable business took care of them (his sisters) and ensured they could manage to bring their children up. I always wonder whether he knew the men - perhaps he felt it a duty to care for their children who knows? I was always very fond of these two aunts but never during their lifetime knew their stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 16 May , 2007 Share Posted 16 May , 2007 I have an interesting 1914-15 Star Trio to a member of the Australian Camel Corps {A CSM No Less!} amongst the plethora of documentation{Thanks Australia!!} are a series of letters from a solicitor to Army Records trying to trace said CSM as he had a son born to a German woman,whilst stationed in Egypt,and in the 1940s was stateless & seeking Australian nationality,the claim being that CSM ***** had gone through a "Form Of Marriage" with the boys mother,{unfortunately the prior Mrs ****,would not have received the news welcomingly....} Nuff said that the NCO in question upon returning to Oz promptly changed his moniker to Cockburn!!!,& was living under that name in the late 1940s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
celestine47 Posted 16 May , 2007 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2007 Ahoj! There was an interesting thread about this very subject a couple of months ago. Look for it. Borys what heading would it be under??. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 16 May , 2007 Share Posted 16 May , 2007 A related topic which has appeared is that of children fathered by British soldiers in France, Belgium and Germany during and after the war. Little seems to be known. As a comparison, I recall that babies fathered by GIs/Poles/Canadians etc over here during WW2 were not uncommon! Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 16 May , 2007 Share Posted 16 May , 2007 QUOTE (Phil_B @ May 16 2007, 10:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ... children fathered by British soldiers in France, Belgium and Germany during and after the war. One wonders how many boys fathered by British soldiers in Germany in 1919/20 went on to fight against their fathers' country in WW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest geoff501 Posted 16 May , 2007 Share Posted 16 May , 2007 Hello, I know this has little to do with women at war but with women during war and their men too. I wonder how many children were born out of wedlock during the war as the possibility of death was so close a live now attitude would have prevailed and people would not excercise too much caution. I had a reletive who had a child in 1918, the father is not known but I personaly believe that he was a soldier who never came back. Plotted from data obtained from ONS. Vertical scale is "Illegitimate births per 1,000 single, widowed and divorced women aged 15-44" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borys Posted 17 May , 2007 Share Posted 17 May , 2007 Ahoj! I found it: I thought it was longer ... Borys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Strawbridge Posted 18 May , 2007 Share Posted 18 May , 2007 The statistics in post #8 make interesting reading. The WW1 period post war saw a reduction in illegitimate births to that seen pre-war. Conversely the WW2 period post war saw an increase in illegitimate births to that pre war. Could it be that the pre 1914 Victorian values of right and wrong were still prevalent after the war? That post 1945 women were more liberated in having to do men's work throughout the war (and mixed more) and this followed through in their "interest" in sex? Or was it that less men returned from the Great War meaning that there was less chance of illegitimate births? Finally the dates of the highest incidence of illegitimacy is interesting. For the WW1 period 1920 shows the highest - meaning that "the act" took place in 1919. This is when servicemen were returning home. So with many young widows looking to get on with their family lives and seeking men to do this with perhaps that is the reason for their lowering their morals and doing the deed pre marriage. Whereas the highest rate around WW2 is for 1945. So 1944 was the conception year - this period when D day was approaching and women might possibly never see their man again so they "gave in" to sexual liason. But strange that there should be differences re the two wars. This is how I read it in a simple sort of way but have I got it wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borys Posted 18 May , 2007 Share Posted 18 May , 2007 Ahoj! The graphs are fascinating! The number of illegitimate births after WWI droped to below of pre-war levels. It went down by one fourth, in fact, from 8 to c.5,5/6 per 000. And it apparently stayed at that level until WWII! Of course, this is only part of the story, as that statistic is for single, divorced or widowed women. Married women are not in it ... Borys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted 18 May , 2007 Share Posted 18 May , 2007 In my own family, there is proof that hanky panky is widespread in wartime! I have an uncle who while overseas fathered a child in the UK. Meanwhile, back here in Canada, his wife (my aunt) had a relationship with a British RAF type training with the BCATP. This resulted in a little girl. There wasn't much my uncle could say when he returned in 1945! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest geoff501 Posted 18 May , 2007 Share Posted 18 May , 2007 The statistics in post #8 make interesting reading. The WW1 period post war saw a reduction in illegitimate births to that see pre-war. Conversely the WW2 period post war saw an increase in illegitimate births to that pre war. Could it be that the pre 1914 Victorian values of right and wrong were still prevalent after the war? That post 1945 women were more liberated in having to do men's work throughout the war (and mixed more) and this followed through in their "interest" in sex? Or was it that less men returned from the Great War meaning that there was less chance of illegitimate births? Finally the dates of the highest incidence of illegitimacy is interesting. For the WW1 period 1920 shows the highest - meaning that "the act" took place in 1919. This is when servicemen were returning home. So with many young widows looking to get on with their family lives and seeking men to do this with perhaps that is the reason for their lowering their morals and doing the deed pre marriage. Whereas the highest rate around WW2 is for 1945. So 1944 was the conception year - this period when D day was approaching and women might possibly never see their man again so they "gave in" to sexual liason. But strange that there should be differences re the two wars. This is how I read it in a simple sort of way but have I got it wrong? Very interesting. Perhaps this thread should really be called "morality and the war, illegitemite births" in the section "Men in the Great War". These figures were first collected in 1866, when the figure was 18/1000. It decreased steadily over the Victorian age to settle at the pre-WW1 level. Perhaps the greater prospect of getting bombed, gassed or starved at home was higher in WW2, although WW1 was bad enough. Also perhaps more overseas soldiers were stationed here. May be a factor. The next high blip in the graph is 1968, can't remember the figure off hand but perhaps some here remember 'the summer of love', 1967? By the 1980s the level is much higher. Edit: 23.0/1000 in 1968 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest geoff501 Posted 18 May , 2007 Share Posted 18 May , 2007 Legitimate births per 1,000 married women aged 15-44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyHollinger Posted 22 May , 2007 Share Posted 22 May , 2007 I have only anccillary information to add. In WWI was the first, National Level push to provide information and actual devices to teach our Boys (Can't shoot straight unless you live straight) the use of condoms. While the YMCA and the Army itself did its best to teach complete abstinence and just say no ... going as far as closing down brothels that had lived next to military instlallations for almost a century - they also brought condoms to the forfront of US life. Most Americans were probably ignorant of their existence ... America was very puritanical and while urban "players" probably knew about them and where to get them ... they were illegal in most states. Soooo ... WWI morality campaign and the Progressive War and all that ... but there was this push to train troops in STD prevention and gov't supplied "Pro-kits" which went full bore in WWII. I have no idea about England/UK/Australia or Canada .... but perhaps this technology and increased usage is why the war years reflect no or little increase in Illegitimate births Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 24 May , 2007 Share Posted 24 May , 2007 What would make an interesting graph would be statistics for babies born within 7 months of the wedding, comparing pre-war, war and post-war periods. Several years ago I read a book of New Zealand history that had a graph as described above, and it showed that quite a bit of hanky panky was actually going on... but it's covered up by a quick-smart trip down the aisle. Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 24 May , 2007 Share Posted 24 May , 2007 Geoff, Maybe only for idle curiosity, but it woud be interesting to see the graph for 1925-1936 as well, for comparison? What we are looking at in these graphs is a social revolution, brought on by the wars. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 24 May , 2007 Share Posted 24 May , 2007 Geoff, Maybe only for idle curiosity, but it woud be interesting to see the graph for 1925-1936 as well, for comparison? What we are looking at in these graphs is a social revolution, brought on by the wars. Ian I agree that there was at least the beginnings of a revolution during the war but due to the Great Depression which blighted all aspects of society for 15 to 20 years, the revolution was stopped and even reversed in certain areas. The main legacy was the knowledge that a revolution was possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest geoff501 Posted 24 May , 2007 Share Posted 24 May , 2007 Illegitimate births 1925 - 1936 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 25 May , 2007 Share Posted 25 May , 2007 Geoff Thanks - so pretty even numbers, albeit at a lower level than the previous decade and a half? Economic reasons, or a stable period, even if financially depressed? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 25 May , 2007 Share Posted 25 May , 2007 Thanks - so pretty even numbers, albeit at a lower level than the previous decade and a half? Economic reasons, or a stable period, even if financially depressed? Less men to do the deed with? (Although you'd think the men being away at war might have caused a similar dip during 1914-1918ish) Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 25 May , 2007 Share Posted 25 May , 2007 Less men to do the deed with? (Although you'd think the men being away at war might have caused a similar dip during 1914-1918ish) Allie More choice and variety for those left..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pietro Posted 25 May , 2007 Share Posted 25 May , 2007 Does anyone know, if at that time, illegitimate childrens' birth certificates would show the Mother's surname. Come to think of it I don't know what the situation is today either! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 25 May , 2007 Share Posted 25 May , 2007 I'm fairly certain they did, Peter. At least, that is the impression I've receieved from various books I've read about adoption - and most of the children who were adopted were illegitimate. The father's name on the other hand, is often not given. And these days cannot be given without his consent. Often the children were not named either, especially if they were going to be adopted and thus get a new name anyway. I had an elderly relative who died only a few weeks ago. His original birth certificate had 'ILLEGITIMATE' written across it in red unfriendly letters as well. Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borys Posted 25 May , 2007 Share Posted 25 May , 2007 Does anyone know, if at that time, illegitimate childrens' birth certificates would show the Mother's surname. Come to think of it I don't know what the situation is today either! Peter I suppose it varies from country to country. I'm from Poland. I have a ******* son*. But as I recognised him as mine, I'm on the birth certificate. Writting out the form acknowledging him as the fruit of my loins took me 2 minutes of scribbling on the windowsill at the Registration Office. * - teehee - the language filter won't let me use the "b" word - OK, my son is illegitimate. Borys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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