Brigadier general Percy Crozier

[Desmond7]

Funnily enough ... I am swiftly reaching the same view of Falls. He does seem to have written everything with an Inniskilling slant in mind ... his reportage of the 2nd Inniskillings on March 21 being a prime example!

Having said that, I do think his book would make an excellent 'foundation work' for a top class Ulster Division book in the format (for example) of the Peter Bartin 'Battlefields' book. I.E. charge big but give good quality. Maybe one day all us Ulster Div types will pool all our little snippets together and go for it??!

Best wishes.

Can you get Trevor Temple to contact me?

[Bryn_Hammond]

Dear all

All very interesting, but I was looking for a factual reference regarding Crozier's drink and financial problems! Otherwise we are all just trotting out unsubstantiated gossip. Rob, you were perhaps most specific on the matter of dishonouring cheques. What was the source for the detail you provided, please? If you have seen his service record, can you give me a ref?

Thanks

Bryn

[rob elliott]

Bryn,

David Starret's memoirs IWM 79/35/1, as i see you are there can you get me a copy please????

PRO WO374/16997 Croziers Personnal record.

Again information as supplied by Timothy Bowman in his book.

Rob

[Martin B]

Harry - Thanks for starting this thread off. Is that you on the horse in your avatar and have you got the right boots on !!!

Bryn,

Crozier certainly raises hackles whenever he's discussed.

His file at the PRO / NA includes a large amount of correspondence backwards and forwards between him and the War Office in which he makes a number of claims for a gratuity, a pension and various other sums of money he claims were owed to him.

In the file is a summary of irregularities in his financial and personal affairs as they came to the attention of the War Office over a 19 year period from 1902 to 1921 of which the following is only an overview:

(If you're a lawyer for the Crozier estate please add the word 'allegedly' in as many times as you deem fit !!!)

1902: 'Issued a dishonoured cheque in payment of his board and lodging whilst at the School of Musketry, Hythe.

1907: Dishonoured a cheque in payment of his mess bill. The O/C 2nd Manchesters contacted the GOC and requested that if Crozier was brought back from half pay steps might be taken to prevent his being posted to that Btn., as after his 'grave conduct' he had 'no wish to have serving under him an officer who brought discredit to the regiment'. The O/C 2nd Manchesters gave details of another dishonoured cheque to the officers club at Aldershot and of having been contacted by tradesmen to whom money was due asking for Crozier's address.

1908: Evidence of seven further dishonoured cheques. Lt Crozier resigns his commission.

26th July 1909: Crozier declared bankrupt.

1915: The War Office becomes aware that Major Crozier, 9th RIR is one in the same as the man forced to resign in 1908. No action is taken against him.

1918: Crozier's request to be retained in the army refused by the War Office.

1919: Crozier's numerous requests for employment in the Colonial Office, the Foreign Office, the Palestine Mandate or the Treasury (!) all refused.

September 1919: A 'Miss Latter' asks the War Office about Crozier's whereabouts, stating that all letters were being returned to her.

December 1919: A firm of solicitors seeks Crozier's address from the War Office. No reason recorded.

June 1920: Crozier leaves an address in Bognor apparently owing money to a Mr J Gibbons. Mr Gibbons seeks his new address from the War Office.

July 1920: The Foreign Office seeks Crozier's address from the War Office. No reason recorded.

October 1920: Mrs Crozier called personally at the War Office (!) and stated that her husband had left her entirely destitute and that it would be neccessary for her to go into the workhouse that night. She wanted to know his whereabouts with a view to commencing civil proceedings.

January 1921: A Miss Hilliard contacts the War Office complaining that Crozier owes her between £ 50 and £ 60 that he had promised to repay at £ 10 a month through Cox's Bank. She stated that she'd only ever had one payment and that she'd discovered that the bank had been told to postpone further payments.

There are pages of this kind of stuff. Crozier would appear to have been 'a bit of a lad' (to put it mildly )as well as an undoubtedly brave soldier. That he was not very good with money seems clear but I can't find anything about him having a drink problem - though Lord knows he might have been forgiven one !

Hope this helps.

Martin

[Bryn_Hammond]

Bryn,

David Starret's memoirs IWM 79/35/1, as i see you are there can you get me a copy please????

PRO WO374/16997 Croziers Personnal record.

Again information as supplied by Timothy Bowman in his book.

Rob

Rob

D___n! D___n! Triple D__n! My books all in store (Bowman's excellent one amongst them) where I can't get at them and now I'm away from the IWM on holiday for 2 weeks! I *knew* Peter Hart had used this source but couldn't check if it was IWM. Didn't help that I was spelling 'Starret' like you and IWM Docs department has it as 'Starrett'!

Oh ......................... spit!

Thanks very much for your response. I will see what I can do about reciprocating.

Crozier's record will have to wait until I'm at NA PRO.

Thank'ee again

Bryn

[Bryn_Hammond]

Martin B!

What can I say?! Ripping stuff! Absolutely top hole!

Thank you very much for the extensive detail! It appears Crozier wrote more bad cheques than Ernie Wise wrote bad plays! Frank Crozier's The Cheques I Wrote - one of the great unpublished memoirs of pre-war Britain!!

I shall be thanking all the many stars in the firmament that is the Great War Forum for the help you all give me when the time comes.

Thanks one and all

Bryn

[Bryn_Hammond]

I've just had a surreal thought! Frank Crozier's similarity to Billy Bunter - "I say, you chaps, can anyone lend me 10 shillings? I'm expecting a postal order?"

Bryn

[Martin B]

Bryn,

10 shillings !!!???!!! You're having a laaarff !!!

[Desmond7]

As already stated, top class in the field, bit of a banjax with the cheque book.

Despite all his faults, still proud of Perce.

I bestow him with the honour : -

Ulsterman (Hon).

[Black Watch]

Have seen a few posts about his "undoubted bravery". Is there any evidence of this?

To me he seems to have been a shoddy little crook in his private life and, from his quotations,

thoroughly callous both as a person and commander during WW1.

Neil

[Desmond7]

Malcolm Brown obviously had faith in Starret's views - Crozier's behaviour during 1918 is well quoted - I have no time for Crozier as a 'normal' human being ... but I have never found him faulted in action.

'Callous martinet' he may well have been, but not a shirker of duty.

[Black Watch]

Callous martinet' he may well have been, but not a shirker of duty.

I see what your saying Desmond but, as a commander part of his duty would concern the welfare of the men under his command. This doesn't seem to be the case here. When I asked earlier for evidence, what I should have asked for were examples.

Neil

[rob elliott]

Neil,

Thought we'd already pointed out that he was quite an effective officer. Where is your evidence that he neglected his men?

Already said about the reasons for Rfn Crozier being shot, so i don't think that one can be used against him.

In fact on a number of occasions, as pointed out above he was quite [too] lenient.

Can see why he wrote so many books though. Wonder if he cleared any of his debts.

regarding his personnal bravery, again all i can say is refer to people that Knew him, Starret and Malcolm McKee.

Rob

[Desmond7]

Starret makes reference to his behaviour during the German offensives of 1918 when his skills under pressure in organising defence were very evident. Starret may well have been too close to his 'man' but I doubt he (Starret) would have gilded the lily too much.

Malcolm Brown quotes both Starret and Crozier in his 1918 book if you have it. I can scan if you don't.

[Black Watch]

Neil,

Thought we'd already pointed out that he was quite an effective officer. Where is your evidence that he neglected his men?

Rob

Rob, I was going on the quotations attributed to him. ie

"....I glance to the right through a gap in the trees. I see the 10th Rifles plodding on and then my eyes are riveted on a sight I shall never see again. It is the 32nd Division at it's best. I see rows upon rows of British soldiers lying dead, dying or wounded in no man's land."

and

"The net result of the barren, glorious bloody battle of Thiepval is that over 700 men of the West Belfast battalion of the Royal Irish Rifles prove their ability to subordinate matter to mind. Intellectual discipline had triumphed."

Neil

[rob elliott]

Neill,

To me both those quotes say the same thing. 'What a waste of good men advancing against well placed machine guns'.

He was commenting on how disciplined troops will advance into fire [even when they know it may be futile].

Crozier, along with Col Bernard was one of the few officers that knew in advance things were not going to go as easily as some thought.

As the 107th Brigade were in reserve they did not advance until the situation had deteriorated mid morning. Anticipating this Crozier and Bernard had agreed to advance out of Theipval wood with their men to get them going.

This was against direct orders.

Bernard was killed at the edge of the wood and the 10th Rifles faltered.

Crozier was said [by Malcolm McKee] to have gone out in front of the wood in full view to urge the men on [he was waving his revolver about a bit].

But he was not sending these men forward to a glorious death, he knew that the men that had crossed succesfully in the first waves needed support if the objectives were to be achieved.It was neccesary to get them into the German positions as quickly as possible.

Later when the 107th Brigade was supposed to carry out their final advance on the 5th line, Crozier, with others, requested the attack be called off. Unfortunately as we know now too well the communications were no good and the attack went ahead.

To their credit the Belfastmen reached the German lines but in too few numbers to be effective.

In fact the CO of the 10th Inniskillings knew the potential dangers too and he had moved the men out into no-mans land before the whistles went.

On seeing this the 9th Inniskillings moved off before their officers told them to, although i would assume the junior officers saw the 10th had gone and thought they were behind so just followed.

If this tactic had been followed by all other attacking formations then the day may have gone better. I think only one other Division had troops that did this [the Manchesters?].

It was not the enemy at their front that did the damage.

I still don't see how a few ill conceived words in his writings should reflect on his actions on that day.

As i recall he also made sure his men were fed before they went into action.

I think there is no doubt that had he a choice he would have gone forward with his battalion.

Not the actions of an uncaring man.

Rob