LT Roy

[centurion]

Does anone have any information on a Lt Roy (posibly an anglicisation of an Indian name or a nom de guerre - rather like Mr Prince) a fighter pilot with the RFC and possibly RAF? He was Indian. He was shot down and killed sometime in 1918. I believe that he may have flown an SE5a and scored more than five victories which would make him the first Indian fighter ace. However I can find no details of him in English language Indian sources (who like the Irish until recently have been a bid 'sniffy' about Indians whose success was under the dastardly Ral) or in British material (who might have not included him because he wasn't British!)

[Dolphin]

Centurion

For information on Lt Indra Lal Roy, see: http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/india/roy.php

I hope this helps you.

Gareth

[john-g]

Centurion

For your information Cross and Cockade GB/International carried an article on Roy in Volume 5 (1974) issue1 1 written by Somnath Sapru, and we have also been trying to find out about another Indian, Jeejeebhoy Piroshaw Bomanjee Jeejeebhoy As for the remarks about the Irish, there are plenty of articles written about Mannock and other Irish RFC/RAF aircrew, as for 'sniffy' British, I think you would do better that to look through C&CI indexes and you might find the only short coming is your lack of research in to published sources?

john_g

[centurion]

Centurion

As for the remarks about the Irish, there are plenty of articles written about Mannock and other Irish RFC/RAF aircrew, john_g

But not from Irish sources in the Republic (I'm half Irish myself on my Mothers family side, my Grandfather having joined the Dublin Fusiliers in 1914) Until recently there has been some embarrasment in Eire about celebrating Irish involvement in WW1 (my family span both sides of the divide and I spent my early childhood in County Sligo). Things are thankfully changing now but, for example I knew someone from Limerick whose grandfather had served in the same Battalion as my grandfather who was embarrased about talking about his grandfathers service in the British army. Funnily enough there has always been less problem about celebrating those Irish volunteers who served in WW2.

Similarly when I did some work in India some years ago I tried to use the opportunity to try to do some digging about some Indian units in WW1 and earlier wars ( I had a special interest in the Bombay Field Artillery units that served in Egypt in 1801 at the siege of Cairo) and got a similar response from some (not from the military I would add).

[fitzee]

John should also remember that the First World War divided Canada and was a very unpopular war particularly after the Borden goverment implimented conscription. French Canada felt it was a European war and huge anti war protests were staged in Montreal and Ottawa. The farmers and labor groups were opposed for obvious reasons and I can't imagine the Irish Catholics from the Ottawa valley [where I'm originally from] were very enthusiatic about fighting for the Crown. The flying core was somewhat of an elitist branch because you had to be an officer to fly, and I believe you needed a civilian flying licence before His Majesty would spend any money on your military air training. The public was also very aware of the enormous cost of caring for the physical and psychological casualities of the troops returning from the war. The Canadian War Museum in Ottawa does an excellent job educating it's visitors with these facts.

Fitzee

[john-g]

My point is this, I have included the section of the post you to see.

“However I can find no details of him in English language Indian sources (who like the Irish until recently have been a bid 'sniffy' about Indians whose success was under the dastardly Ral) or in British material (who might have not included him because he wasn't British!)"

Because centurion cannot find any English language reference does not mean there are no English references or that the

British are "sniffy", the sources were out there as quoted but not found by centurion, so why because he failed to find the source does that make the British "Sniffy"?

If the Irish have not written about the efforts of their countrymen in the either wars, why is that a reflection on the British? There has and continues be material published about the men from Ireland north and south who fought for the crown.

I can also quite see that there could have been problems with the Irish community in Canada, but surely French Canadians,( some of whom served with the RFC/RNAS/RAF) would have wanted to support France against the Germans who had invaded France and were occupying it.

To fly you did not have to be an Officer, if you do a little research you will find a certain J T B McCudden who was part Irish and flew as a Sgt pilot before he gained his commission as did Sgt T H P Bayetto, and there are others. Before and in the early part of the war you did have to take your "Ticket" Royal Aero Club certificate and then further training with the RNAS and RFC, you paid for it and the government repaid the cost if you passed, later when the system became inadequate the forces did all there own training and the "Ticket" was not necessary.

john_g

[fitzee]

RECRUITMENT AND CONSCRIPTION

1914-1918

"In 1917, Ottawa imposed the controversial measure of compulsory military service, or conscription.

Prime Minister Sir Robert Borden initially expected Canada’s overseas manpower needs to be met through voluntary means. Following the outbreak of war, militia units across Canada acted as recruiting stations. By the end of 1915, recruitment had declined and Ottawa allowed patriotic-minded groups of citizens to raise units at their own expense. In January 1916, Borden announced a Canadian overseas troop commitment of 500,000 men, an almost unsustainable number of voluntary enlistments from a population of barely eight million.

Recruiting was slower in French Canada, which lacked the ties of kinship and tradition with Britain that encouraged Canadians of British ancestry to enlist. As a result of high casualties and dwindling enlistments, in August 1917 the government passed the Military Service Act imposing conscription. French Canada bitterly opposed this measure, as did farmers’ and labour groups, and Canadians became deeply divided over the issue."

John, this is from the Canadian War Museums website. At the Museum itself they have footade of the demonsrations on Parliament Hill and in Montreal, it is a documented fact! For whatever reasons, the majority of French Canadians opposed conscription, if you went to war it should be your own choice

Early in the war, who do you think could afford the initial money for the "Ticket" which usually required on top of the fees for training and room and board, a cash deposit in case of an accident in one of the machines. Do you think the average farmers son in rural Ontario could come up with the money? The flying corp was a way to avoid the trenches for the kids of the upper classes. In fact, in 1916, it was thought that the RNAS was the best route to take because it avoided service in France concentrating more on the home defense in Engand. As the war progressed, particularly after "bloody april" 1917, the British relied heavilly on the colonies to make up for the losses

so the requirments weren't as strict. The life expectancy of a new piloton the frontlines was two weeks

Yes John, most of us on this forum are quite capable of research.

[centurion]

My point is this, I have included the section of the post you to see.

“However I can find no details of him in English language Indian sources (who like the Irish until recently have been a bid 'sniffy' about Indians whose success was under the dastardly Ral) or in British material (who might have not included him because he wasn't British!)"

Because centurion cannot find any English language reference does not mean there are no English references or that the

British are "sniffy", the sources were out there as quoted but not found by centurion, so why because he failed to find the source does that make the British "Sniffy"?

If the Irish have not written about the efforts of their countrymen in the either wars, why is that a reflection on the British? There has and continues be material published about the men from Ireland north and south who fought for the crown.

I can also quite see that there could have been problems with the Irish community in Canada, but surely French Canadians,( some of whom served with the RFC/RNAS/RAF) would have wanted to support France against the Germans who had invaded France and were occupying it.

To fly you did not have to be an Officer, if you do a little research you will find a certain J T B McCudden who was part Irish and flew as a Sgt pilot before he gained his commission as did Sgt T H P Bayetto, and there are others. Before and in the early part of the war you did have to take your "Ticket" Royal Aero Club certificate and then further training with the RNAS and RFC, you paid for it and the government repaid the cost if you passed, later when the system became inadequate the forces did all there own training and the "Ticket" was not necessary.

john_g

John could you point out where in my post I said the British were sniffy? I fear you just didn't tread it properly. Effectively I said some people in Ireland and India were 'sniffy' about their countryis involvement in a 'British' war. Please don't misquote me.

[fitzee]

Also, for the record, my mother's side of the family were upperclass "orangemen" from Toronto. My Grandfather was an RAF pilot in the First World War and his brothers and most of his family served during the war. My father's side were Irish Catholic from the Ottawa Valley and I can't find any record of military service in WW1. My father was an RAF pilot in WW2 and my mother was a nursing sister. Their mariage would still have been considered a rather unlikely event in 1959 in lieu of their family backgrounds. One thing I know for a fact was my Grandfathers fellow WW1 comrades included Roy Brown, Don MacLaren [his best friend], Bill Claxton , Mel Alexander, A Wheatley to name a few who all lived in the same neighbourhood[ Rosedale Toronto] after the war and were all members of St.Pauls Anglican church on Bloor Street... so what does that tell you?

[john-g]

Fitzee

[john-g]

Centurion,

If I have misunderstood your post then I apologise.

john-g