Guest Steve M Posted 18 December , 2003 Share Posted 18 December , 2003 Greatings from the Great White North (20 cm of snow on the way (-5 Degrees C)) Watched a show last night on the Boar War. The mentioned that British casualties for the Boar War were approximatly 22,000 (mostly from disease). I was a little stunned after they mentioned such a high figure. Can anyone confirm such a high number ? I wonder what impact such a number could have had during the opening stages of WWI ? Interment camps were also set up (like the Japanese during WWII in the US) for the Boar families for the duration of the War. The narrator mentioned they were more like concentration camps but this could be a byassed opinion as he was South African. I have never read anything on the Boar War, can someone recommend a good read on the topic ! Thanks Steve M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 18 December , 2003 Share Posted 18 December , 2003 Boar War? War involving wild male South African pig of Dutch or Huguenot descent? Boer mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hodges Posted 18 December , 2003 Share Posted 18 December , 2003 Thomas Packenham's The Boer War is the standard modern UK history & very good it is too. Concentration camps is not a 'biased' view, but the standard view, this is what was instigated. Civilians were interred to prevent harbouring the rebels, etc and camp conditions were not good & disease levels high. However, in the latter stages of the war there were UK based campaigns to improve conditions for white women and children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 18 December , 2003 Share Posted 18 December , 2003 16,000 died of disease, the rest usually by Mauser riflefire. Concentration camps were a British attempt to deny the Boer irregulars of food and shelter from the Boer population by ' concentrating the Boer population ' in camps. The camps were an ill-conceived idea and diseases decimated the inhabitants, usually women and children. A sorry episode in the British Army history. The term ' Concentration Camp ' did not take on it's modern meaning or interpretation until WW2 and the death camps. The Boer War ones were a disasterous cock-up of miss-management, the Nazi ones were deliberate. Aye Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenwoodman Posted 18 December , 2003 Share Posted 18 December , 2003 Paul is right - Pakenham is the best history. Next best is probably Farwell, Byron. The Great Boer War, (Ware: Wordsworth Editions, 1999) can be picked up in this edition for around £3-99. followed by Kruger, Rayne. Goodbye Dolly Gray: the Story of the Boer War, (London: Pimlico, 1996) sympathetic to the Boers Coetzer, Owen. The Anglo-Boer War: the Road to Infamy, 1899-1900, (London: Arms & Armour Press, 1996). Defends Sir CHarles Warren Military leadership in the war is discussed in Trew, Peter. The Boer War Generals, (Stroud: Wren’s Park, 1999). Can be found new on eBay around £8. From the Boer point of view, two books are usually quoted as worth reading:- De Wet, Christiaan. Three Years’ War, (London: Archibald Constable, 1902). Reitz, Deneys. Commando: a Boer Journal of the Boer War, (Harmondsworth: Penguin Books, 1948). Both were issued in paperback versions and can be picked up cheaply secondhand. In fact De Wet's book can be found online at an excellent website on the Boer War Perspectives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broznitsky Posted 18 December , 2003 Share Posted 18 December , 2003 Richard, can you recommend anything that discusses Canadian involvement during this time frame? Peter in Vancouver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 18 December , 2003 Share Posted 18 December , 2003 Interment camps were also set up (like the Japanese during WWII in the US) for the Boar families for the duration of the War. The narrator mentioned they were more like concentration camps but this could be a byassed opinion as he was South African. Steve Not so, concentration camps is what they were. Many people say that the British invented the concentration camp in South Africa. This is not so, they merely popularised the concept. Concentration camps were first used by the Spanish, against rebels in Cuba in the 1890s. Remember that a concentration camp was simply a place where people were concentrated. If they died of disease, when concentrated, it was probably regarded as "unfortunate". These camps were not the same thing as the German extermination camps, complete with gas chambers and ovens, where people were actually sent to be killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Burns Posted 18 December , 2003 Share Posted 18 December , 2003 Hi Peter, I am unable to find the page right now but if you check out Nicholson's Downloadable history at the Canadian Archives there are some works on that page that deal with Canadian involvement in the Boer War. I seem to recall one by a journalist. Take care, Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Posted 18 December , 2003 Share Posted 18 December , 2003 I was reading an article in Battlefields review about the armoured train ambush at Colenso. Out of the numreous acsualties only three died of mauser rifle fire and many were injured. The article said that Mauser rifles were more lightly to wound a person than to kill them. This was one example Private Williams had a bullet, 'enter beneath the left eye, pass through the palate and mouth and out at the root of the neck.' Private Williams made a full recovery. Therfore if the bullet from a mauser didn't hit a vital organ you were more than lightly able to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenwoodman Posted 18 December , 2003 Share Posted 18 December , 2003 Peter, I am ashamed to say that I have not anything on the Canadians in the Boer War. But I have van Hartesveldt's bibliography on the Boer War, and about 4 or 5 authors come out reasonably well on the Canadian aspect. Stanley McKeown Brown wrote "With the Royal Canadians" (1900) which can be downloaded here:- RoyalCanadians This website lists books by Miller, & Reid which seem OK to van Hartesveldt. Pulsifer And this is the National Library of Canada's bibliography on the South african war: NatLibCan Click on Participation, and then Personal Collective Narratives and scroll down to books by Hart-McHarg and Marquis, which also seem to get the OK from van Hartesveldt. This website might also help:- CanMilLinks Good hunting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Bluestein Posted 18 December , 2003 Share Posted 18 December , 2003 Richard, can you recommend anything that discusses Canadian involvement during this time frame? Peter in Vancouver Check this very informative site: http://www.goldiproductions.com/Pages/Boer...er001_menu.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 18 December , 2003 Share Posted 18 December , 2003 Steve I don't know where in the Great Frozen North you are but Windsor Ontario has a good Boer War Memorial complete with Wellington bomber! Lots of nearby streets have WW1 names so I went to take a look but it's to Boer War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 18 December , 2003 Share Posted 18 December , 2003 With regard to cencentration camps. As has already been commented upon, the deaths were a result of carelesly run, unhygenic camps. I effect it was neglect that killed many women and children. Not that that excuses the situation. Emily Hobhouse, a delegate of the South African Women and Childrens Distress Fund, first revealed the conditions in a report which was initially distributed to MP's. This resulted in the formation of the Fawcett Committee who visited many camps between August and November 1901. Their findings confirmed Hobhouse's report, and Fawcett's report, along with subsequent public pressure in the UK, saw conditions improve, with a dramatic drop in the death rate. Terry Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 18 December , 2003 Share Posted 18 December , 2003 Interment camps were also set up (like the Japanese during WWII in the US) for the Boar families for the duration of the War. Steve/ Forgot to say that such camps also existed in Canada in WW2, for Canadian "enemy Aliens". Canada also "imported" same. A ship called the "Ettrick" carried several hundred British Italian internees and German/Austrian ex-refugees, mostly Jewish, to Canada. They were housed on an island at Montreal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broznitsky Posted 18 December , 2003 Share Posted 18 December , 2003 In the Great War, many Ukrainians and other "Austro-Hungarians" were interned in camps in the Rocky Mountains - camps that they built themselves in the Great Frozen North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brindlerp Posted 18 December , 2003 Share Posted 18 December , 2003 THE SOUTH AFRICAN WAR The Anglo-Boer War 1899-1902 General Editor: Peter Warwick 17 studies by different authors, lavishly illustrated Longman ISBN: 0 582 78526 X 415 pages Published 1980 A very good book. Regards Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brindlerp Posted 3 January , 2004 Share Posted 3 January , 2004 Found this site with interesting photographs "A Miscellany of Items taken from the Illustrated London News Dec 1899 - Apr 1900 - relating in the main to the Boer War". Includes "Of Colonial Interest - The Canadian Contingent" Check out > http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/ILN_1899-1900/Index.html Regards Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyHollinger Posted 4 January , 2004 Share Posted 4 January , 2004 Farwell's little book from Norton Queen Victoria's Little Wars is a great compendium of many of the Imperial wars of the 19th century ... well written and a great piece about the Army before Haldane. Canadians in the Boer War .... Just down from the great monument is a smaller monument with names, etc. for Canadians who went to the Boer war ... sorry, I don't have a picture of that one. As to "Concentration Camps" ... it is a throrny problem. What to do with a populace who actively or passively supports Guerilla fighters? The French didn't do well in Spain so the British tried putting the populace somewhere where they could be watched and not slaughtered ... heck, look at Russia and China during and after WWII or Viet Nam ... or even Iraqnam now ... I don't know, but this process did help end the war ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottsGreys Posted 6 January , 2004 Share Posted 6 January , 2004 I found this photo recently in a flea market. Would this most likely have been taken in or around the time of the Boer War? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nshighlander Posted 6 January , 2004 Share Posted 6 January , 2004 Hi Peter Look at Ursuals site he has some books on the Boer War. www.medalsofwar.com Cheers Dave P.S The History channel had a great Dic on the Boer War.I wonder if you can order them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 6 January , 2004 Share Posted 6 January , 2004 Re Bottsgreys pic - that looks as if they are constructing Kitcheners blockhouses/lines of blockade for restricting movement of Boer Commandos. The unifoms seem to be of the period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sbecker Posted 6 January , 2004 Share Posted 6 January , 2004 Just to threw the stone in the water, That Canadian Troops were known for there murdering unarmed Boers during this war. Just like two Australians (in British Colonial Service) who were Trialed and shot for the sanme thing. There is still a lot of info still to come out about the Canadian soldiers in British Colonial service who comitted war crimes during that war. Its a part of that war that you seem to forget. S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 6 January , 2004 Share Posted 6 January , 2004 Breaker Morant etc. .... I only know the Australian movie ... but it was pitiless sort of war on the veldt .... I don't imagine either side had much time for POWs in the smaller guerilla style actions. SA is a beautiful country - my brother lives in Pretoria - but like my own part of the world (NI) people are keen to hang on to the bad stuff about each other. And why is it the Canucks always get a bad rep. It was the same in Normandy. They were young men fighting other young men and young men don't really know the meaning of life ... and that's a profound world wide statement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottsGreys Posted 6 January , 2004 Share Posted 6 January , 2004 Thanks, Desmond--appreciated. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 15 January , 2004 Share Posted 15 January , 2004 Conan-Doyle's 'The Great Boer War' published in 1903 offers a rather typical British view of the war. It is however available on line: http://www.pinetreeweb.com/conan-doyle-chapter-00.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now