Welsh Regiment Numbers

[womo]

Hi everyone,

Been looking through the N/A and pulled out the MIC for my Grandads Uncle, Watkin Norman Maddy.

I read on the card that he was entitled to the trio plus a TEFFM.

It looks like he also recieved a SWB.

What I dont understand is that it appears he had 4 regimental numbers: 575, 265069, 3951197, 6187.

Is this right?

It states that he was a SGT then WO11 and from what I have been told from family is that he was a captain in the RAMC though I think this may have been through WW2.

Any Ideas????

With regards, Womo.

I was also wondering why there isnt a place named on the theatre entered section?

[Stebie9173]

The first three numbers make sense.

A pre-war Territorial soldier - 1908 or before vintage - Number = 575.

Said man renumbered in 1917 - New 6-digit number allocated = 265069 (The 69th most senior man in the 6th Territorial battalion, which was allocated numbers 265001 to 290000)

After the war he was renumbered again to 3951197.

The TFEM (Territorial Force Efficiency Medal) was a long service medal for Territorial soldiers, which fits with these numbers.

The mystery one is the 6187 number. Some Regiments had an interim numbering series, though I don't know about the Welsh Regiment.

WOII is the abbreviation for Warrant Officer Class 2 - including Company Sergeant Major, Company Quartermaster Sergeants, etc.

No theatre code or date means that he went overseas after 1-1-1916. He may have been kept behind to train recruits, or not volunteered for overseas service due to family commitments, etc. (or both.)

If he served in WW2 then the Ministry of Defence will still have his records, but you need to be direct next of kin to obtain a summary (at the moment, anyway)

Steve.

[Graham Stewart]

As I read it Sgt Watkin M. Maddy was a pre-war Welsh Regt Territorial with a low number 575, although which battatlion he was serving with I couldn't honestly say. It appears that sometime during the war he has been wounded or taken ill which has resulted in him being hospitalised. On recovery he has been transferred to another territorial battalion of the Welsh Regt(possibly 6th Bn) and renumbered 6187 according to T.F. Regulations at that time.

T.F. Regulations cleary state that you cannot be tranferred from one T.F. Battalion to another without your permission and if you are transferred you're discharged from your old unit and renumbered in your new one. It would be the same if he was transferred to the regulars.

In 1917 all Territorials were issued with new six figure numbers and he's been renumbered 265068, which was part of a block of numbers issued to the 6th Bn, Welsh Regt that ran from 265001 - 290000. He would have been disembodied after the war, but on the reformation of the Territorial Army he's rejoined his old pre-war Welsh Regt territorial unit and has been renumbered again 3951197, which was part of a regimental block of numbers issued in 1920 which ran from 3947001 - 4025000.

Graham.

[womo]

Many thanks for that guys, it will be good when ww2 records are more accessible to follow up on his military service.

Cheers, Womo

[Bernard_Lewis]

The 6th Welsh was the Swansea Territorial Battalion.

Bernard

[Bernard_Lewis]

You might try e-mailing Forum member Smilingsixth as he is doing some work on this unit. I note he's not been active for a couple months and I know he's a busy chap - but worth a try.

Bernard

[womo]

Hi Bernard,

what you say about the 6th being a Swansea force matches perfectly as that is where we're all from.

Cheers, Womo

[Dave W]

Sorry about the delay in following up this query but I have only just caught up with this 'thread'. I hope the following is of some interest.

Colour Sergt. Watkin Norman Maddy was a pre war territorial soldier with 6th Bn. Welsh Regiment. He embarked with "B" Company, 6th Bn. Welsh Regt. in October 1914. The Bn. was assigned to Lines of Communication duties and as such the Battalion did not qualify for the 1914 Clasp (apart from a few odd individuals). He remained a sergeant for the duration of the war.

He remained in the 6th Territorial Bn. of the Welch Regt. as C.S.M. later becoming Regimental Quarter Master Sergt. He earned the Territorial Force Efficiency medal. He was still serving as R.Q.M.S. in 1930. On the retirement of Lt. & QM. W.G.R.Cave, in 1930 he was granted a commission as Lt. & Q.M. to 6th Bn. Welch Regt., with seniority from 3rd June 1930.

He was awarded the 1935 Silver Jubilee Medal as Lt. & Q.M. 6th Bn.. Welch Regt. He retired from the active list and transferred to the Territorial Army Reserve of Officers on 30.9.1937. However he perhaps felt that he missed army life and in 1938, from the TARO he was appointed to the RAMC to be Lt. & QM. (with effect from 11.5.38). He was promoted Capt. & QM, to be a General List Officer, 11.1.39.

He relinquished his commission in the RAMC (General List) on account of ill health on 7 June 1941, retaining his rank.

He was awarded the "Efficiency Decoration" (T.D.) in the London Gazette of 2 October 1942.

In the King's Birthday Honours following his retirement (for the second time) Captain (Quartermaster) Watkin Norman Maddy (47245), late Royal Army Medical Corps was appointed to be an Additional Member of the Military Division of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, (London Gazette, 1.7.41).

I believe that I may be able to track down a photo of him in due course.

Dave

[womo]

Hi Dave,

I'm absolutely gobsmacked!!!

How did you get to find out so much?

This information will be greatly received by some members of my family.

All the best mate, Womo

[Dave W]

Womo,

Glad you are happy with the 'snippets' -

I have been compiling a roll of services of officers of the Welsh Regiment in WWI, Coronation and Jubilee Medal rolls and an Honours and Awards of the Regiment with a view to publication one day .........

I have this 'odd' habit of collecting details regarding officers of the Welsh (or leter Welch) Regiment - and of course the London Gazette site does help. I do have a good run of Army Lists and most published histories (I think I am only missing Butlers history of the 69th Foot -(later 2nd Bn Welsh)

The detailed embarcation roll for the 6th Bn in October 1914 is in Lt. R.G.V.M.Bland's rare paperback on "The 6th Welsh in France", which lists the names and states which Company the individual served with.

All the best.

Dave

[womo]

Dave,

thanks again for your help.

regards, Womo.

p.s:- will you keep me posted if you find anything else? Cheers mate

[Wdragon]

Womo,

Glad you are happy with the 'snippets' -

I have been compiling a roll of services of officers of the Welsh Regiment in WWI, Coronation and Jubilee Medal rolls and an Honours and Awards of the Regiment with a view to publication one day .........

I have this 'odd' habit of collecting details regarding officers of the Welsh (or leter Welch) Regiment - and of course the London Gazette site does help. I do have a good run of Army Lists and most published histories (I think I am only missing Butlers history of the 69th Foot -(later 2nd Bn Welsh)

The detailed embarcation roll for the 6th Bn in October 1914 is in Lt. R.G.V.M.Bland's rare paperback on "The 6th Welsh in France", which lists the names and states which Company the individual served with.

All the best.

Dave

Hi Dave W.

Can you help me unravel my great uncle's regimental number? He was Pte I. Griffiths 1659 of the 2nd Bn Welsh regiment. He arrived in France on 29th November 1914 and was killed at Aubers Ridge on 9th May 1915.

I have been unable to discover when he enlisted (the location was Pontypridd). Is there anything in his regimental number that indicates if (as I suspect) he enlisted in Aug/Sept 1914?

He was in C Coy under Cpt. Aldworth in May 1915, do you have any other names from C Coy?

Thanks.

Regards

David

[welshdoc]

David , I think its highly unlikely your relative enlisted in Aug/Sept, nor was he a time expired reservist, therefore its most likely he was in one of the territorial units I am guessing the third or fifth. The time of enlistment of the volunteers in Aug was far too short to allow training and deployment in the November. gareth

[Wdragon]

David , I think its highly unlikely your relative enlisted in Aug/Sept, nor was he a time expired reservist, therefore its most likely he was in one of the territorial units I am guessing the third or fifth. The time of enlistment of the volunteers in Aug was far too short to allow training and deployment in the November. gareth

Thanks Gareth,

I too had initially thought he must have come from the territorials, but I can find nothing to support that. He was too young to have been a reservist. He is listed on the 1910 census as a miner, there is no indication in any of the family papers that show him as being in the territorials, admiddedly the papers are not very comprehensive.

Robert Graves was posted to the 2nd Welsh in May 1915 as a replacement officer (after Aubers Ridge), in his 'Goodbye to all that' he writes 'Of the men, perhaps fifty or so had got more than a couple of months training before being sent out; some had only three weeks training; a great many had never fired a musketry course' (p80 in my paperback edition. And ' In Cardiff the Welsh Regiment advertised: 'Enlist at the depot and get to France quick'' (also p 80). His platoon included five 'under age' boys.

Admittedly he is talking about the nature of the 2nd Bn soldiers after Aubers Ridge and not in November 1914 when I. Griffiths arrived in a draft of 500 replacements.

I had assumed that someone who enlisted in August/September 1914 could not have been at the front three months later, now I am not so sure.

Hopefully the sequence of his regimental number may reveal something.

Regards

David

[welshdoc]

David your right its possible but looking at 2nd battalion casualties in 1914 suggest they were in much higher range of numbers than ivor's. Maybe circumstantial evidence for a tranfer from the Terris to replace these early losses.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/SearchResults.a...1&send.y=12

Edit : just checked some more and my idea holds as much water as a collander, just found some 2nd battalion casualties in the 1000 series.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/SearchResults.a...0&send.y=15

[Wdragon]

David your right its possible but looking at 2nd battalion casualties in 1914 suggest they were in much higher range of numbers than ivor's. Maybe circumstantial evidence for a tranfer from the Terris to replace these early losses.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/SearchResults.a...1&send.y=12

Edit : just checked some more and my idea holds as much water as a collander, just found some 2nd battalion casualties in the 1000 series.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/SearchResults.a...0&send.y=15

Hi Gareth,

yes, I can also find no rhyme nor rhythm in the numbering of the Welsh regiment. these are three of the 2nd Welsh ORs who died on 9th May 1915.

L. Cpl. Justin McCarthey No 109/6

Pte. H. Borrowdale No 5881

Pte I. Griffiths No 1659

and one who survived ;

L. Cpl. J. Earl 18587

Can these be a mixture of regimental numbers and (centralised) army numbers.

I hope that there is a wise reader who can offer some sage advice.

Regards

David

[phbakker]

Hi Dave,

I am searching for any info on my relative Charles Richardson White who I have been told was a Captain in the RAMC with The Welch Guard at the Sulva landing in the Dardanelles campaign. Without his service number I have not been able to trace any further info than what has been handed down to me which is as follows:

DECEMBER 11, 1903. - 3rd Volunteer Battalion, the Welsh Regiment,Charles Richardson White, Gent., to be Surgeon-Lieutenant. Dated 12th December, 1903.

JULY 14, 1908. -Surgeon-Captain Charles Richardson White, from the 3rd Volunteer Battalion, The Welsh Regiment, to be Captain, with precedence as in the Volunteer Force. Dated 1st April, 1908.

1 JANUARY, 1918- (Maj. T/Lt. -Col. ) Charles Richardson White, MB, R.A.M.C. was awarded the DSO ref : THE LONDON GAZETTE 28th Dec 1917 p.27

http://www.gazettes.co.uk/ViewPDF.aspx?pdf...hardson%20White

With such awards and knowing that The Welch Guards went on from Gallipoli to distinguished themselves in action in the Middle East, there must be a way I can obtain information on what involvement (if any) he had with the Welch Guards during and after Sulva Bay, as well as his service number.

Any help would greatly be appreciated.

Peter of Warrnambool, Victoria, Australia

[Stebie9173]

Peter,

The Welsh Regiment and the Welsh Guards were two separate units - the Welsh Regiment were "Infantry of the Line" whilst the Welsh Guards were, well, the Guards.

The 3rd Volunteer Battalion of the Welsh Regiment were a Militia Battalion prior to 1908, when they converted into the 6th (Territorial Force) Battalion of the Welsh Regiment on 1st April 1908. At this point, Charles left the 3rd Volunteer battalion and became a member of the 2nd Welsh Field Ambulance of the Royal Army Medical Corps.

Further entries from the London Gazette:

London Gazette 29-9-1914

Promoted to Major:

2nd Welsh Field Ambulance.

Captain Charles R. White, M.B., to be Major. Dated 5th August, 1914.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...es%20R.%20white

London Gazette 15-6-1915

Welsh Casualty Clearing Station.

Major Charles R. White, M.B., from 2nd Welsh Field Ambulance, to be Lieutenant-Colonel (temporary). Dated 29th April, 1915.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...es%20R.%20white

London Gazette 27-12-1916

ROYAL ARMY MEDICAL CORPS.

The following announcement is substituted for that which appeared in the Gazette of the 15th June 1915:

Maj. C. R. White, M.B., from a Field Ambulance, to be Maj. 29th April 1915.

Maj. C. R. White, M.B., to be temp. Lt.-Col. 29th April 1915.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...%20White,%20M.B.

London Gazette 31-8-1918

ROYAL ARMY MEDICAL CORPS.

Maj. (temp. Lt.-Col.) C. R. White, D.S.O., M.B., relinquishes his temp, rank on ceasing to command a Casualty Clearing Station. 18th June 1918.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...C.%20R.%20White

LG 22-7-1920

Maj. C. R. White, D.S.O., M.B., T.D., to be Lt.-Col., and to command 3rd Western Casualty Clearing Station. 16th Feb. 1920.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...C.%20R.%20White

LG 7-10-1924

ROYAL ARMY MEDICAL CORPS.

General List.

The undermentioned Lt.-Cols. to be Bt. Cols., with precedence as from 16th Feb. 1924. 8th Oct. 1924 :

C. R. White, D.S.O., M.B., T.D.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...C.%20R.%20White

LG 19-3-1929

TERRITORIAL ARMY.

Col. C. L. Isaac, T.D., M.B., F.R.C.S., to be A.D.M.S., 53rd (Welsh) Div., vice Col. C. R. White, D.S.O., T.D., M.B., vacated. 16th Feb. 1929.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...C.%20R.%20White

LG 23-4-1929

ROYAL ARMY MEDICAL CORPS.

Col. C. R. White, D.S.O., T.D., M.B., to be Hon. Col. R.A.M.C. units, 53rd (Welsh) Div. 3rd Apr. 1929.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...C.%20R.%20White

LG 25-4-1930

TERRITORIAL ARMY.

Col. C. R. White, D.S.O., T.D., M.B., having attained the age limit retires and retains his rank, with permission to wear the prescribed uniform. 24th Apr. 1930.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...C.%20R.%20White

Here is his Medal Index Card (front):

Incidentally, if the Qualifying date is correct then it would be when he sailed from England and not when he landed at Suvla Bay, otherwise he would have been pretty lonely landing a month before everyone else in the 53rd (Welsh) Division!

http://www.1914-1918.net/53div.htm

He also has a Medal card for a mention in Despatches:

Description Medal card of White, C R

Corps Regiment No Rank

Royal Army Medical Corps Major /Temporary Lieutenant Colonel

Date 1914-1920

Catalogue reference WO 372/24

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=4

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Back of Medal Card (both cards are at about 50% reduction from the full size ones on Ancestry)

By the way, officers did not have numbers during WW1, and when they did from the 1930s, these were only administration numbers - the officers would never have been referred to by their numbers.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Nearly misssed one:

London Gazette 25-6-1935

THE GRAND PRIORY IN THE BRITISH REALM OF THE VENERABLE ORDER OF THE HOSPITAL OF ST. JOHN OF JERUSALEM.

Chancery of the Order

St. John's Gate,

Clerkenwell, London, E.C.I.

2lst June, 1935.

The KING has been graciously pleased to sanction the following promotions in and appointments to the Venerable Order of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem:

As Officer.

Colonel Charles Richardson White, D.S.O., T.D., M.B.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...es%20Richardson

------

Since he served after 1922 then his records will probably be held by the Ministry of Defence, though I'm not sure about Medical personnel.

Steve.