Would he have been on HMS Greenwich or based at Greenwich?

[MsAngry]

Hi,

Another question about my Great Uncle, Thomas Mason, (RMLI 11626).

Thomas's record is listed as "Greenwich" for the division or ship, with accompanying dates of 10 Feb 1917-30 Oct 1919.

I am not sure if this means he was on the Greenwich, or based at Greenwich.

Some googling indicates that the Greenwich (F10) was launched in 1915 and commissioned in 1916, so it was in existance.

Some of the details are difficult to read and I only have a paper copy, but I'll do my best to transcribe the details:

Greenwich..........10 Feb 1917- 31 Dec 1917...........................VG........SAT...............K Kiddle

....-do-...............01 Jan 1918 - 31 Dec 1918..........................VG........SAT...............K Kiddle

....-do-...............01 Jan 1918 - 28 Oct 1918....."hqrs?"...............................................................

....-do- ..............29 Oct 1919 - 30 Oct 1919.....On Passage......VG........SAT..............H G Archdale

His record states he then was based at Portsmouth.

I presumed because it says he was On Passage, that meant that these entries refer to HMS Greenwich??

"hqrs" is difficult to read. I'm guessing it could mean Headquarters. Hq Qtrs is mentioned at the end of his time on HMS Europa, just before he went to Jutland. (HMS Cochrane).

Thanks for any information.

Colette

[spithead]

Hi,

Another question about my Great Uncle, Thomas Mason, (RMLI 11626).

Thomas's record is listed as "Greenwich" for the division or ship, with accompanying dates of 10 Feb 1917-30 Oct 1919.

I am not sure if this means he was on the Greenwich, or based at Greenwich.

Some googling indicates that the Greenwich (F10) was launched in 1915 and commissioned in 1916, so it was in existance.

Some of the details are difficult to read and I only have a paper copy, but I'll do my best to transcribe the details:

Greenwich..........10 Feb 1917- 31 Dec 1917...........................VG........SAT...............K Kiddle

....-do-...............01 Jan 1918 - 31 Dec 1918..........................VG........SAT...............K Kiddle

....-do-...............01 Jan 1918 - 28 Oct 1918....."hqrs?"...............................................................

....-do- ..............29 Oct 1919 - 30 Oct 1919.....On Passage......VG........SAT..............H G Archdale

His record states he then was based at Portsmouth.

I presumed because it says he was On Passage, that meant that these entries refer to HMS Greenwich??

"hqrs" is difficult to read. I'm guessing it could mean Headquarters. Hq Qtrs is mentioned at the end of his time on HMS Europa, just before he went to Jutland. (HMS Cochrane).

Thanks for any information.

Colette

Hello Collette

HMS GREENWICH ( Ex-Greek Merchant converted on stocks ) Depot ship 8,600 tns, built by W.Dobson and completed by Swan Hunter 5.7.15. Sold 11.7.46.

Regards John

[horatio2]

Colette

Difficult to assess without the whole document - any chance of a posting here? GREENWICH definitely refers to the Depot Ship HMS GREENWICH but I'm not sure where she was based. (Portsmouth?)

I note your GU was in the Royal Marines Light Infantry (RMLI - possibly Portsmouth Division?), in which case the HQ you mention may refer to the Porstsmouth Division RMLI HQ but that does not tie in with his serving in HMS GREENWICH at the same time. There is a muddle here which may be solved only by seeing the original document - e.g. what was he doing between 28 Oct 1918 and 29 Oct 1919?

Have you been in touch with the Fleet Air Arm Museum to see if they have any other papers for him?

[MsAngry]

Here's the whole jobby - two sizes, different quality settings

I've put them on my server incase I blow this forum up with a whopping great big image

1.29MB Thomas Mason RMLI Service Record gif zip

0.5 MB Thomas Mason Service Record Gif

Here's what I transcribed... My genealogy software has screwed up the dates unfortuntely when it exported the dates, but hopefully the ship names should help, and the dates seem relatively easy to interpret

Transcription Attempt PDF with Ship Details and research

I would be interested in finding out why his good conduct rating changed He liked his 'ale' from what I have been told......a family tradition I like to keep alive

I have found out some stuff about the ships by googling for photos and tech specs etc, but as usual I always want to know everything....

I've emailed Fleet.. I live in London, so I'll have to wait to visit in person....

Thanks for any advice.

Cheers,

Colette

[horatio2]

This a very full record and some bits are quite hard to read. My best guess at deciphering the GREENWICH entries in 1917-1919 is as follows: He was drafted to the ship on 10 Feb 1917 as part of the ship's company. On 1 Jan 1919 (perhaps) he was drafted to Portsmouth Division RMLI HQ but remained in the ship for passage home (his relief perhaps having joined). He was then borne in HMS GREENWICH for passage until 30 October 1919. This seems an awfully long passage and the alternative is that it is only the last GREENWICH entry, 29-30 Oct 1919 that is the passage time - the bracket may be the wrong way round. Certainly the "Hdqrs" (here and elsewhere) refers to a draft back to Portsmouth RMLI HQ joining for three weeks until 21 Nov 1919 when he was drafted to the Royal Naval College, Osborne (IOW).

If the FAAM have his other papers, it is possible that they will include his Conduct Record Sheets. They should explain his not-infrequent lapses from VG Conduct. He went as low as FAIR, which could indicate quite serious 'crime(s)'. He also was deprived of Good Conduct Badges on more than one occasion and was in the Second Class for Conduct. Not a very good conduct record although he seems to have improved with age!

What you have transcribed as "Portsmouth Docks" should be "Portsmouth Division", i.e. the RMLI barracks at Forton. Also, the rank of (Royal) Marine did not come into use until 1923. He was a Private of the Royal Marines Light Infantry throughout his service.

[horatio2]

One other point. I think you may be missing a second page of his record becasue I can see no details of the end of his service. He had signed on for pension and (unless invalided) it is very unlikely that he would have left before pension. He enlisted two months under the age of 18 on 1 July 1901 and his 21 years service for pension would have been hit on 1 September 1922 unless he had forfeited time through bad behaviour, in which case later. This record of service only runs to 31 Dec 1921

[MsAngry]

Thanks for that analysis. This is my first attempt at unravelling a marine, and my knowledge of ships is almost exhausted after I have described that the "pointy end is at the front".

You'll have to bear with me as I get the hang of some of these naval ideas...I've only really read/thought about infantry and artillery on the Western Front to date......

I've got a few more questions.

--> What does "on passage" mean? Travelling from A-B? Patrolling a zone rather than travelling to somewhere specific? or something else entirely?

--> The Naval College at Osborne.. Why would he "go" there? I have read on some other forums that Osborne was a "cushy number". I wondered what that might mean - i.e. cushy from a student's point of view, or a staff member's point of view?

--> What does drafted mean...? I thought of it being a synonym for "deployed"? or does it have a special meaning in this context?

--> What would be an average time for a "tour of duty" during the conflict? The time he appears to be at sea throughout his career seems very long to me...

--> Did HMS Greenwich perform a similar support role that the Europa would have done? Logistics/Supporting other vessels who were in the firing line? It wouldn't just have stayed in Portsmouth harbour would it because of a lack of office space on land or something like that??

With respect to the conduct, I have a CD describing military court cases that I bought ages ago, I'll see if that has anything. I also think it might be an idea to get in touch with the MOD in Glasgow since he left after 1921 - there's a chance there might be some information deposited with them.

Thanks again for all this - I might be off-line for a while now, I've done 26 hours of straight surfing round his record details (addicted me, nah)... but it has been a *lot of fun*.

Cheers,

Colette

[MsAngry]

One other point. I think you may be missing a second page of his record becasue I can see no details of the end of his service. He had signed on for pension and (unless invalided) it is very unlikely that he would have left before pension. He enlisted two months under the age of 18 on 1 July 1901 and his 21 years service for pension would have been hit on 1 September 1922 unless he had forfeited time through bad behaviour, in which case later. This record of service only runs to 31 Dec 1921

I paid for a researcher to get his details for me, I only had his name and DOB to go on...although I am 99% sure this is everthing there was.

However, the same researcher is looking into a RE Sapper for me at the moment, so perhaps I can ask him to just double check whilst he's at Kew.

I know Thomas was bad with money, if he came home on leave and he had spent his money already he stayed with his Dad., Thomas Snr If he had some money left to go out on the lash, he stayed with his sister, Bridget. I don't supposed he would have done something to jeopardise his pension (later in his career), the only real alternative for a job would be back at Stanton and Staveley Iron Works, and he left that to join the Marines.

His dad died in 1923 from acute gangrene, so that would be the end of that handy financial safety net......so I hope he did the right thing.

Thanks again,

Colette

[horatio2]

"On passage" = men taking passage in the ship from one place (e.g. a foreign station) to another (e.g. UK). They may have been borne on the ship's books for pay but they were not part of the ship's complement (i.e. they were 'additional' or 'supernumerary'.

The RN College at Osborne had its own 'ship's company' of ratings and marines who carried out various duties, some connected with the training of young officers, some not e.g. guarding. 'Cushy' is a subjective word. Certainly there was not the hardship of life in a ship but the standards at Osborne would have been exemplary.

A sailor or marine is 'drafted' to a new ship or establishment (= 'posted'). He may or may not form part of a larger 'draft' of several men.

"Tour of duty" = 'length of draft' to a ship. As long as a piece of string, especially in wartime. Men often spent two years or more away from UK. A long time at sea? That's what he joined for!

HMS EUROPA was a warship (armoured cruiser) designed for a war-fighting role. HMS GREENWICH was a support ship (depot ship). She would carry out the administration and repairs for the smaller ships which were her 'tenders' and provide other facilities which were missing from small ships. Being operational ships themselves, most depot ships could move to provide support close to where the action was in the world.

I doubt your CD would have anything on him.

Your man's other page should be at TNA. I note that there is an entry on his papers which says "Carried to

11625" (the previous man's number) so they may have put his other, final entries on that page. Worth checking. I doubt you will get anything from Glasgow. The rule does not apply to him.

Hope that helps. Good luck!

[horatio2]

I paid for a researcher to get his details for me, I only had his name and DOB to go on...although I am 99% sure this is everthing there was.

However, the same researcher is looking into a RE Sapper for me at the moment, so perhaps I can ask him to just double check whilst he's at Kew.

Do that. Any decent researcher should have checked to make sure he had all the information. This record is not complete so you have not got your money's worth.

[John Morcombe]

"Carried to 11625" does indeed mean that subsequent entries were noted on the previous man's record. Very common with RM & RN papers. The research geezer should do this copy for nowt.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

The wooden walled hulk HMS Duke of Wellington was sold in 1904 as part of (First Sea Lord) 'Jackie' Fisher's reforms to get the money to pay for his preferred ships - the battlecruisers and first HMS Dreadnought.

Cochrane was in the Second Cruiser Squadron at Jutland.

'Under Age' just meant that he was underage for pension to be calculated, the Navy/Royal Marines did not share the view that overseas service should start at 19, they recruited at 15 and sent boys to sea (and war) when they were 16.

[MsAngry]

Do that. Any decent researcher should have checked to make sure he had all the information. This record is not complete so you have not got your money's worth.

I emailed him and he's checking out the info for me for free

Thanks for all the replies.

Colette