March 1918- South Africans- Marrieres Wood

[Kathie]

In the great retreat of March 1918 the SAI moved back from Gauche Wood to Marrieres Wood just to the west of Bouchavesnes. There they held out for a couple of days. The wounded were not evacuated - one of my soldiers was captured once the SAI surrendered and was one of the 100 survivors taken eastwards - he, Eric Dold, died of wounds at Le Cateau and was buried by the Germans. However, lots of SAI did die in these few piddly little trenches at Marrieres Wood.

Does anyone have any idea where they might be buried??

I accept the Germans were advancing, no time to stop and bury. But the advance didnt last that long - when the British went forward again bodies would have been identifiable. Indeed all those on the north west tip of Marrieres Wood would have been Germans or South Africans. So which cemetery would have been used. I dont know of one close by - there is one just north of Bouchavesnes onthe road going west towards Combles but that is a German cemetery and where I start my walks from.

Any ideas where I can visit South Africans from this last stand???

Thanks

Kathie

[the gunners dream]

Hi Kathie,

I would suggest a lot of them were commerated here:

http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_detail...7600&mode=1

Steve

[Paul Reed]

Kathie - I am pretty sure that they are all on the Pozieres Memorial. I did some research on this some time ago, long before the net, and have never found a single grave of a men killed there. I suspect the dead were buried by the Germans, and the graves not marked or lost in later battles.

[Kathie]

Thanks Paul and Steve.

I am surprised to think that the Germans had time to bury anyone. In the German advance of March, they went forward further than marrieres. But were things quiet enough and was there really time????? How long would that area have been in German hands - weeks????

If the germans had done quick burials in trenches for instance, surely a little while later there would have been plenty of signs of a filled in trench or two. The British came back within months. And surely the SA woudl have looked up the area themselves when they went through at the end of the year and looked for fallen comrades. ???? Seems a bit careless just to leave people there.

I doubt any missing would be on the Pozieres memorial - the SA are all at Thiepval.

Kathie

[Kathie]

Apologies both Steve and Paul - I wrote too soon without reading the Pozieres memorial more carefully - I see 300 SA names are there.

I am suprised though - why arent they on Thiepval?

Kathie

[reklaw]

However, lots of SAI did die in these few piddly little trenches at Marrieres Wood.

Does anyone have any idea where they might be buried??

Kathie

There seem to be a few South Africans buried at Assevillers New British Cemetery from Marrieres Wood, I have just discovered a family tie in with one of the soldiers who is buried there. Sadly it hasnt seem to have attracted a lot of attention from photographers either. I hope you find who you were looking for....

Derek in South Africa

[Paul Reed]

That's interesting Derek - Assevillers is not somewhere I would have looked because of its distance from the location of the battle. Something to follow up another day.

[nicburch]

As this thread is based with the South African infantry, can someone help me with the South African Scottish, if possible the 4th regiment in 1918.

nick

[ian turner]

Nick,

Why not ask what you need. I am sure someone will be able to help.

They were part of the 9th Scottish Division -Somme until end March, then Flanders from early April. Battle of the Lys,

Meteren and then leaving the division. The numbers of the SA regiments had been so reduced that they ended up as a composite brigade by the end of their 9th Div service.

Ian

[nicburch]

Ian,

My interest lies with a lad from my village aged ten in the 1901 cencus but recorded as born in the Transvaal which was very unusual 'in these parts'. He died in January 1918 and is in the St Ever cemetery in Rouen.

He was living, along with a brother also born in Transvaal with his grandfather at the time of the cencus. It occured to me that he may of emigrated back to South Africa or he enlisted here. I have looked into the South African Scottish but not much detail is forthcoming. Perhaps i should be looking at late 1917 as he died in the January.

Nick

[bantamforgot]

Don't forget David Ross the 14 years old boy Kathie, granted he died after the Gauche Wood action & was buried by the Germans after dying of wounds. He is a lone SA burial along with two British soldiers at Heudicourt communal cemetary.

Regards.

Colin

[ian turner]

Ian,

My interest lies with a lad from my village aged ten in the 1901 cencus but recorded as born in the Transvaal which was very unusual 'in these parts'. He died in January 1918 and is in the St Ever cemetery in Rouen.

He was living, along with a brother also born in Transvaal with his grandfather at the time of the cencus. It occured to me that he may of emigrated back to South Africa or he enlisted here. I have looked into the South African Scottish but not much detail is forthcoming. Perhaps i should be looking at late 1917 as he died in the January.

Nick

Nick,

Yes, it sounds like he died of wounds at a hospital (Rouen), so sometime late 1917 would indeed be the probable time to consider.

History of the 9th (Scottish) Division, and the South Africans (by John Buchan) would both give you some idea.

Ian

[nicburch]

Ian

Thankyou for the advice.

Nick

[tesrein]

I just read that 7 South Africans were originally buried at a German Cemetery between Bouchavesnes and Marrières wood and were reburied after the war in Assevillers New Brit. Cemetery which is a concentration cemetery.

By the way, the author of 'Poppies and Pyramids' Peter Digby will visit the area as he would like to have a memorial plaque for the South Africans near Marrières Wood which he will finance himself.

[James Gray]

14174 Pte John Durham Brown, No 4 Platoon, "A" Company, 4th South African Infantry Regiment (South African Scottish), 1st South African Infantry Brigade, 9th (Scottish) Division. Eldest son of William & Margaret Brown, 11 Standalane Street, Galston, Ayreshire Scotland. 

Emigrated from Glasgow to South Africa 22nd August 1911 aboard SS Anchises. 

Enlisted with 4th South African Infantry Regiment (South African Scottish) at Potchefstroom on 3 April 1917. This was a composite battalion sized regiment, predominantly made up of expatriate Scots volunteers from the Transvaal Scottish and the Cape Town Highlanders regiments and wore Atholl Murray tartan kilts. 

He left South Africa from Cape Town on 20 April 1917 aboard H.M.S. Euripedies and disembarked in England on 22 May 1917, where he underwent training with other reinforcements for 1st South African Infantry Brigade in Woking, Surrey.

Disembarked in France 28th July 1917 for Active Service on the Western Front. 

Wounded in Action 3rd October 1917. 

Killed in Action at the Battle of Marrieres Wood, near Bouchavesnes on 24th March 1918. 

Buried in: Plot 5, Row C, Grave 16, Gouzeaucourt New British Cemetery. 

Commemorated on the Galston War Memorial.

Edited 17 March , 2018 by James Gray
Pte John Durham Brown in 4th South African Infantry Regiment (South African Scottish) uniform.

[clive_hughes]

James Gray,

I've had a look at the CGWC documentation regarding your  man J.D.Brown.  His body was exhumed from map ref. 57c.w.16.b.9.8, which I make to be (very) approx. 15 kilometres East-North East of the Marrieres Wood site?  In a field 1.6 Km northeast of the centre of Heudicourt village; close to a farm on the D181 road.  

 

He wasn't alone: the 69th Labour Company also recovered from that same reference 16850 Pte. J.B.Reid 4th SAI, both men stated to have died 24 March 1918.  There was no cross on their graves, and the means of ID is a documentary reference of some sort.  No effects forwarded to base.  An "Unknown British Soldier (Scottish) " was found with them. All were reburied at Gouzeaucourt, the two named men in adjacent graves.  

 

If this is correct, some of the SA casualties were given battlefield graves quite a way from the site of their stand.

 

Clive

Edited 27 November , 2016 by clive_hughes

[Guest]

Hello all,

I'm new to this forum. As a novice my interest is genealogical although I do collect military badges and insignia.

I've been researching 2 family members who lost their lives in the Great War. One in 1917 the other in 1918.

 

1. 14367 Private Erenst Ebenezer Waspe,  4th Regiment South African Infantry (South African Scottish). Born 1888, Bathhurst, Eastern Cape.
He left South Africa 20 April 1917 on H.M.S. Euripedies. Sadly six months later almost to the day he was killed in action on 21 October 1917. I assume he was in the Monchy-Breton district. He is one of 5 South Africans buried at St. Julien Dressing Cemetery, Belgium.

 

And this one which is more related to the above thread.

 

2. 13071 Private Theophilus Charles Joseph Bennette, 'B' Company 1st Regiment South African Infantry who died on 24 March 1918 Age 21.

According to Frank Kelly - "Sunday the 24th of March, what a remarkable day that was, a really desperate fight at Marrieres Wood, the SA Brigade was down to only five hundred at that point".

Theophilus Bennette is commorated on a Memorial Stone at Pozieres Cementary along with 57 other South Africans. Attached is a list of the other names on the Memorial Stone No. 96. B.

 

Any information to add to my knowledge would be most welcome.

Tony.

 

On 23/03/2007 at 22:48, Kathie said:

On 23/03/2007 at 22:48, Kathie said:

In the great retreat of March 1918 the SAI moved back from Gauche Wood to Marrieres Wood just to the west of Bouchavesnes. There they held out for a couple of days. The wounded were not evacuated - one of my soldiers was captured once the SAI surrendered and was one of the 100 survivors taken eastwards - he, Eric Dold, died of wounds at Le Cateau and was buried by the Germans. However, lots of SAI did die in these few piddly little trenches at Marrieres Wood.

Does anyone have any idea where they might be buried??

I accept the Germans were advancing, no time to stop and bury. But the advance didnt last that long - when the British went forward again bodies would have been identifiable. Indeed all those on the north west tip of Marrieres Wood would have been Germans or South Africans. So which cemetery would have been used. I dont know of one close by - there is one just north of Bouchavesnes onthe road going west towards Combles but that is a German cemetery and where I start my walks from.

Any ideas where I can visit South Africans from this last stand???

Thanks

Kathie

 

.

 

 

[MaureenE]

A  book mentioned in post  12 is available online 

The History of the South African Forces in France by John Buchan 1920 Archive.org

 

Cheers

Maureen

[Guest]

Thanks Maureene.

Edited 3 May , 2017 by Guest

[Reinderd]

I've been at David Ross's grave at the communal cemetery of Heudicourt. I left a small South African flag as tribute. I read that he was seriously wounded (when he was still 13!!) at Zonnebeke in 1917 during the attack at Menin Road and was in hospital in England for months. Just to go back tot France to be killed. So sad.

[James Gray]

On 11/27/2016 at 21:01, clive_hughes said:

James Gray,

I've had a look at the CGWC documentation regarding your  man J.D.Brown.  His body was exhumed from map ref. 57c.w.16.b.9.8, which I make to be (very) approx. 15 kilometres East-North East of the Marrieres Wood site?  In a field 1.6 Km northeast of the centre of Heudicourt village; close to a farm on the D181 road.  

 

He wasn't alone: the 69th Labour Company also recovered from that same reference 16850 Pte. J.B.Reid 4th SAI, both men stated to have died 24 March 1918.  There was no cross on their graves, and the means of ID is a documentary reference of some sort.  No effects forwarded to base.  An "Unknown British Soldier (Scottish) " was found with them. All were reburied at Gouzeaucourt, the two named men in adjacent graves.  

 

If this is correct, some of the SA casualties were given battlefield graves quite a way from the site of their stand.

 

Clive

Clive
Many, many thanks for this invaluable information and for the time you spent researching it. In what year did 69th Labour Company exhume the aforementioned bodies and does the fact that these casualties were given battlefield graves quite a way from Marrieres Wood suggest that they died of wounds in a field hospital or casualty evacuation centre?

Kindest regards
James.

[clive_hughes]

James,

The burial return at Gouzeaucourt seems to be dated 1 August 1919.  You should be able to see it here: https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/248105/brown,-john-durham/#&gid=null&pid=1

 

The body of the unknown Scottish soldier might well be a man from the same 4th SAI, but without surviving badges or personal ID maybe this was based on recovered fragments of kilt, etc.  The date of death of the other two would most likely have been phrased as "on or after 24 March",  based on when they were reported missing - their service papers might have more information.  

 

I would guess that some sort of medical facility would be the chief reason why these three were originally buried at such a distance from Marrieres: but I don't know what the Germans had in place.  Perhaps if you started a thread asking for details of German Field Hospitals near Heudicourt during the March offensive, the specialists might be able to enlighten you!

 

Stop press:  Brown has a record with the International Red Cross.  They received a missing person enquiry about him, from Miss Marion C.Laing,  3 Ayr Street, Troon, Scotland.  Brown had been reported missing as of 24 March 1918.  They checked the information received from the Germans, and reported a nil result on 6 June 1918.  However, on 15 November 1918 they noted he was indeed dead, as his ID disc had been "sent in from the graves commission of an Etape (?) Inspection through Central Estates Bureau 9.10.18.  Place of burial uncertain - Villers-Plouich, Gouzeaucourt, or Epehy?  Further details unknown."  The family were duly informed by ICRC on 6 December 1918.  https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search/#/3/2/224/0/British and Commonwealth/Military/Brown

 

Checking the same source for J.B.Reid (though indexed as Read) it states D Coy. 4th SAI - when this is followed through it gives his regimental number as 10, states he was captured at Combles on 24 March 1918, and entered as a PoW at Munster II Gefangenlager, previous place of residence : The Front.   He was born 21 June 1881 Frizlington; next of kin 15 Skilscuigh Road, Frizlington, Cumberland.  Quite how this ties in with a body in a field in Heudicourt I really don't know!!  Here's the relevant page https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/04/01/C_G1_E_04_01_0112/C_G1_E_04_01_0112_0086.JPG/

 

One hears of 1918 PoWs being recorded as sent to the major Camps, but in fact not leaving the Front and being used as labour within or just behind the battle zone, on pretty miserable rations.  This despite the Geneva rules to the contrary.  I recall reading years ago at the IWM a typed memoir of a British soldier to whom this happened.  Clearly Reid's body was eventually found in France, not Germany.   I wonder if therefore the three bodies might represent casualties from a basic wire "cage" rather than a medical facility?  

 

Sorry to complicate your research.  

PS - the CWGC record Reid's forenames as Thomas Bowes, not J.B.   I hope I have the right man?

 

Clive 

Edited 4 March , 2018 by clive_hughes
New info

[James Gray]

Clive
Thank you for this absolutely fascinating insight and for your thorough research into my maternal great uncle's circumstances of casualty, battlefield burial, subsequent recovery of body and final interment. Of particular intrigue is the realisation that 14174 Pte John Durham Brown and the two soldiers recovered with him might represent casualties from a basic POW wire "cage".  I am therefore indebted to you.

I began my research into Pte Brown's death back in July 1994 with an inquiry to the South African High Commission, London and which was subsequently passed onto the Documentation Service of the South African National Defence Force. I am most grateful to the latter for providing me with a typed extract from Pte Brown's Record Of Service. However, no British Army equivalents of his Attestation/Enrolment Paper, Medical Inspection Report or Record of Promotions, Reductions, Transfers & Casualties seemed to be available for me to recieve photocopies of. Not stated on his Record Of Service were his date of immigration, former address and occupation in South Africa prior to enlistment, previous military service (if any) or the particular Company within 4^th South African Infantry Regiment (South African Scottish) he served. His stated service in D Coy was an assumption on my part because various military websites record that it was made up of recruits encouraged to enlist by the Caledonian Societies of Natal and Orange Free State. However, deployment with No 4 Platoon was confirmed. Previous employment in Scotland could have been in the Ayreshire coal mines: the vocation of miner he may have pursued in South Africa.

I am presently searching for any likely military files on Ancestry.co.uk for clarification of the aforementioned missing details. However, I suspect they aren't available. Also, the outside possibility of family links with a certain Miss Marion C.Laing,  3 Ayr Street, Troon; thanks to the new lead you provided me with. Alternatively, the realisation that she may have been his girlfriend or fiancee prior to his emigration to South Africa or simply an acquaintance he may have met while home on leave from camp in Woking, Surrey. I deduce the latter scenario from the fact that the attached photograph of him wearing 4^th South African Infantry Regiment uniform was taken by A. McGregor & Sons, 46 King Street, Kilmarnock, which is approximately 5 miles from his parents' home in Galston, Ayrshire: Troon being approximately 15 miles from Galston.

Thanking you once again,
Kindest regards
James

Edited 4 April , 2018 by James Gray
Portrait by A. McGregor & Sons, 46 King Street, Kilmarnock of 14174 Pte John Durham Brown in 4th South African Infantry Regiment (South African Scottish) uniform.

[clive_hughes]

You're very welcome James.  

It might still pay to ask on this Forum (in a new, separate thread) whether there was a medical OR POW facility as described near Heudicourt.  The graves concentration records state that the Labour Company didn't have grave crosses to guide them to the spot, so their efforts to retrieve the bodies might have been based on some statement/record now lost; or witness statements from British or German personnel who had been at that place; or sheer chance (maybe the spot just looked as if it was worth searching for graves...).  

 

The ID disc  - by 1918 soldiers had 2 of these, one supposedly being left with the body, and the other retrieved for evidence (?maybe this one was the example sent to the Red Cross).  Two bodies were indeed identified, so maybe the second disc had been left in situ?  

 

His company - normally, each company of 4 making up a battalion was made up of four platoons.  They were almost invariably "A" Coy. - Platoons 1-4; "B" Coy. - Platoons 5-8; "C" Coy. - Platoons 9-12; "D" Coy. - Platoons 13-16.  So if he was in 4 Platoon, he was a member of "A" Company.  

 

As to records I had gathered several years ago, from a SA researcher with access, that the record cards (a specific type of document) were stored in some disarray.  A couple of my Anglesey casualties died with the SA Forces.   For one man (SW Africa campaign) I could get only a couple of sheets; for the other I managed through a different paid researcher to get about 14 xerox pages of records, including record card & a 2-page Attestation form.  

 

Clive

[fitz_merc]

I am researching a Wilfred Fairlamb who served with the SAI and was reported missing at Marrieres Wood.

 

Are South African service records available on the net?

 

I have been very impressed by New Zealand records- free to access and very detailed.  Kew should learn