Trench maps of more obscure areas, Anzac

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Stuart

G'day mate

Thanks for posting the excellent maps.

Cheers

Bill

[Jeff Pickerd]

Stuart,

Thank you very much for these maps, very interesting and a great help, and yes, they are roughly in line with what I was seeking.

Again, maps I have never seen before.

This topic is rapidly bringing forth more information than I have been able to find in years of research, and for this, you all have my eternal thanks.

I have to ask, where have you sourced these from?

Any idea of the approximate date for these having been drawn up?

Lastly, which unit are they emanating from, Australian, New Zealanders, British, LH, infantry, artillery, engineers, etc?

Bill,

Once again my many thanks for your exceptional assistance. You must by now, know the AWM archives inside out.

I am going to print out this artillery map to see if I can get a better idea to all the guns positions, but I may have to come back to you for some help.

Bryn, Jack, Bill & Stuart, again a big thank you to you all.

Jeff

[Jeff Pickerd]

Bryn,

I have to make a correction to my earlier post with regard to stating that the entrance of the Whispering Tunnel was the "shaft" depicted in your map.

In my elation and hast to reply, and more likely lack of sleep, I did not go back and check your map more thoroughly before making that assertion.

The Whispering Tunnel entrance was from the Secret Sap, left hand side of Russel's Top.

The shaft depicted on your map is something totally new to me, for there is not one mention of it in any of the letters or diaries of the 8th LHR men. Also nothing that I can find in any of the official records, Brigade and Regimental diaries.

Your map has revealed some other interesting points. It shows the Secret Sap pushed out to the edge of Malone's Gully and connected to all the communication saps. It has the soil dumps for the tunnel excavations either side of Russell's Top, so it can be assumed that these are well advanced to what they would be by the 7th August, but it does not have the saps 2 through to 8 having been pushed forward and connected.

From what I can make out, possibly Sap 2 & 3, are the only ones worked out and joined up.

The crater, also has me tossed, this is now obviously not the mine that was fired on August 6th, for your map would appear to pre date this by at least a month.

In this case, this is also something that I have not come across a reference to. If a mine was set off prior to the August 6th one, it would have been set and fired by the New Zealand engineers.

As a comparison I am attaching the map of Russell's Top from the Official History of Australia in the War of 1914-18, C.E.W. Bean, Vol 2, page 606, Map No. 17.

With regard to the position of the "shaft" depicted on this map, it does not line up with any of the high level or low level tunnels that were worked out from front trenches on Russell's Top, but interestingly, it would appear to be directly over the westerly branch of "Arnall's Folly", the secret deep level tunnel that was worked right out under the Turkish trenches at the Nek.

I can only assume that the "shaft" was just that, going down to this tunnel, and its purpose being for ventilation.

Very interesting!

Attached Map No. 27, page 217, Vol 2 OHAW 14-18.

So much so for my initial elation, once again, now comfronted with more unsolved questions than answers.

Jeff

[essdee]

Jeff

"" I have to ask, where have you sourced these from?

Any idea of the approximate date for these having been drawn up?

Lastly, which unit are they emanating from, Australian, New Zealanders, British, LH, infantry, artillery, engineers, etc? ""

These maps are from the NA - Kew, in series WO153. The file ref. going by memory is something like WO153/1149. I'd have to check to be sure. It is a series of maps and plans extracted from war diaries and as such are drawn from various sources, infantry, artillery etc. Some maps are dated and others are not, which makes it difficult to place them in context as they are not cross referenced to the diary from which they were taken. Again, going by memory, there were about 40/50 of these maps.

I've added another map which is one of a number of trace maps I found. I'll send it full size although it may lose some definition, it's dated 22 Nov '15. Later, I'll crop a portion out and expand it to give a better idea of info contained therein.

Stuart

[The Plummed Goose]

Jeff,

Attached a detail of a turkish map which was drawn up after the evacuation. Unfortunately very difficult to post here as these are MEGA size...

eric

you'll get a closer and more detailled glance in August :-)

[essdee]

Jeff

A close up crop from the above

Stuart

[Bryn]

Stuart and Eric,

Thanks for posting your maps. They're very interesting to me also.

Jeff,

The map that the Russell's Top detail is from is not dated, BUT - is a part of a series of 3, and the other sections include Durrant's Post, Antill's Lookout, etc. These were positions not established until after the fighting in August 1915. See the key below. Sheet 1 - The Apex; Sheet 2 - Antills Lookout; Sheet 3 - No. 1 Outpost.

As you'll see, some of the positions you asked me about previously are not included, however I'll see what I can do about getting as much as possible scanned - the maps are A2 size - which I think is double A3, making that a task that will take me some time with an A4 scanner.

Bill,

Thanks for posting that. I'm working my way through your Anzac Day edition at the moment and finding that also very interesting. A mate of mine has bound sets of the originals, but only of the pictorial sections. You'd probably be interested in reading the following article:

Mackay, Brig. Gen. I.G. ‘Lonesome Pine: Called After The Song.’, in Reveille RSS&AILA, NSW Branch, Sydney. 1 Aug 1932, p14, 87.

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I was thinking if you have a detailed or stetch map of the southern end of the l;ine and the postions in June 1915 for the Balkan Gun Pits attack.

I am particlurly interested in Ident many of the positions mentioned in the Bde and Regt diaries. And to better understand where each Sqn of the 5th LHR was during the attack.

S.B

[Ozzie]

Eric, you are tempting Jeff to fly over tomorrow!

I find it fascinating what members have stored away, and with just the right question, out comes all this material.

Cheers

Kim

[essdee]

Jeff

Here's a map with Twin Tower Ridge in the centre hope it comes out ok.

Stuart

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

In ref to my last.

I need a map that shows the southern area of the line around Chatham post and Southern No1 positions held by the 2nd LH Bde in June 1915.

The Attack by the 5th LHR at the Balkan Gun Pits on the 28th June 1915 by A Sqn supported by B Sqn which was to hold in a intermedite position between both points and then moved to Green ridge to provide fire suport to A Sqn.

C Sqn then moved into the intermedate position to cover both untill called to take up a position on the rifge to bring fire on the Turkish postitions on the southern Pine ridge line.

The map I have shows only the names of a few positions and makes no mention of the Green ridge, which must be along that ridge off the beach from Chatham Post and the Balkan Pits and Holly Spur where two Troops of C Sqn 7th LHR took up a covering position.

Do you have any detailed maps of this area?

S.B

[Jeff Pickerd]

Thank you all for the latest input, I shall try and address each of you in turn. As it has been a long weekend over here in Melbourne, I have not had much spare time due to other engagements, to respond until now, although, I would have much preferred to have been up at the Towong Cup with Ozzie and Frev and Co.

Eric,

The map you have put up would appear to answer a great deal to my quest to establish the trench systems on all of Russell's Top. I will just have to contain myself until August

Hopefully by then we will have a far greater knowledge of what we will be looking at.

Bryn,

Thank you for the full explanation to your maps, but again, as you have pointed out, re the later positions at Rhododendron Spur, this has only added to more confusion on my part as to the actual lay out of all the trenches. The greatest problem is we are looking at each mans interpretation of the positions and as such there are many discrepancies.

From all the different maps and sketches that I now have available, I have been endeavouring to put all that is known to one map, and for this purpose I have used the sketch drawn up by Lt Col Noel Brazier, C.O. 10th LHR, for it covers all of Russell's Top.

Another major problem is that all of these maps and sketches pertain to different dates, so I am going to make this map as of early August.

I shall post this shortly, hopefully! Still a bit more work to be done.

Stuart,

Again, thanks for the latest map. The only trouble is, I have absolutely no idea where Twin Tower Ridge is on Gallipoli. There is no reference to it in the Australian Official history that I can find.

Could you give some more details?

I am afraid you have got me going now, be prepared to be bored to death.

Jeff

[Bryn]

Jeff,

I'm with you on that last map from Stuart. I've never heard of any one of those places. Stuart - are you sure it's Gallipoli? If so, where?

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Bryn

G'day mate

You might find that the area mentioned in Stuart's last map is indeed a trench system near the area of operation although a couple hundred miles north near Salonika.

Cheers

Bill

[Jeff Pickerd]

Ok, here is what would appear to be the features of Russell's Top; trenches, saps, posts, MG & artillery gun emplacements, phone posts, rest areas, etc, etc.

I can make no claim to being a proficient map drawer, even when working with a copy of an original, but hopefully it will show all the information gathered from all the maps you have put up to-date.

This map is worked on a copy of the original sketch by Lt Col Noel Brazier, and for information from Bryn's map, I have shown this in red.

I have also added and expanded on Colonel Brazier's original.

Note: the lines indicating the range and direction of the two machine gun posts, is from a previous exercise using information from one of the 8th LHR machine gunners, Trooper Douglas Hill. I have left it in, for it is in its self of importance to the trenches up on Russell's Top, over looking Monash Gully.

Before attaching the sketch I would like to make one other observation from the information found on Bryn's map, being the Naval Light, or Red Lamp.

Major William "Lauchie" McGrath, the 8th's historian, has left an account of the Naval Light, he is referring to the bombardment that proceeded the charge at the Nek: -

"This preliminary bombardment was being done from sea by warships, and a word of explanation regarding its carrying out may not be amis, as some wonderment may be caused as to how this could be done in darkness, and with safety, when the opposing trenches were so close to each other. This was got over by us putting up a secret lamp, coloured red, right in our foremost sap, and on the cliff edge facing seawards. The observers on the boats could see this, though the enemy could not, and the ship's gunners knew that anything within 20 yards of this would mean casualties for us. They had been practising nightly during the past few weeks, occasionally using their searchlights for better observation, and had by now become very accurate."

I had up till now taken his account to intimate that the red lamp was further out along the No. 2 Sap, but Bryn's map has given us its position. Another mystery solved, almost; there were two lamps, yet to establish where on the cliff face the other lamp was.

Just one other point, there are very many references to "Broadway". I can still not determine whether this was Todd's Road, Main Street trench or Mule Road, or possibly, a combination of Mule Road and either one of the others. Yet to find anything that will give a definite answer.

The Map -

Open the widow and continue to click the image to enlarge for better clarity.

Jeff

[Jeff Pickerd]

Here is the copy Lt Col Noel Brazier's original sketch. He drew this up on the 10 December 1929 for the official historian, undoubtedly from memory and his own records. Colonel Brazier was a surveyor by profession and I put a great deal of faith in his sketch, it conforms with most other maps of Russell's Top.

Jeff

[Bryn]

Bill, thanks for the clarification on where Twin Towers Ridge was. I don't know much about the Salonika campaign beyond the very basics, so did not recognise any of those positions.

Excellent maps, Jeff. Thanks very much for posting them. Attached here is a fairly basic map which I doubt will add too much to your knowledge, but then again every little bit sometimes helps. This map is from the following:

Nicol, C.G. The Story of Two Campaigns. Official History of the Auckland Mounted Rifles 1914 - 1919, Auckland, Wilson & Horton, 1921.

[Bryn]

Attached is the chapter on the defence of Walker's Ridge, from the book above (Nicol), just in case you haven't read it. Possibly it might also contain clues.

amr_history_chapter_6.rtf

[Jeff Pickerd]

Thanks Bryn,

The map conforms very closely to those in the 9th LHR War Diary, therefore has much merit to establishing what the trench systems were like in May/June. It is interesting that they both give a rough idea to Abbot Park rest area.

I cannot thank you all enough for the valuable information that has been submitted.

Jeff

[essdee]

Sorry to confuse everyone with the last map. It was in amongst a collection of Gallipoli maps and assumed it was part of the peninsular, it explains why I could never find the location.

Stuart

[Jeff Pickerd]

Stuart,

Not to worry, your maps have been wonderful. I am sure that any researching the Salonika campaign will be just ecstatic when sighting this map.

On the other hand, you had all of us frantically searching for refrences. Can't be all bad!

Jeff

[bluedog]

Pals

Could any kind person kindly pin-point for me the location of

Turks Point on Russell Top /Walkers Ridge Gallipoli.

A map if possible would be most appreciated

Regards

Peter

[birchp]

Pals

Could any kind person kindly pin-point for me the location of

Turks Point on Russell Top /Walkers Ridge Gallipoli.

A map if possible would be most appreciated

Regards

Peter

Peter

map as requested

Paul