Newtown Powys

[serreroad]

Hi all

I spotted this a couple of weeks back and went back to take a pic today. In case you can't read it it says

"THE HEAD QUARTERS OF THE 5TH VOL BATTALION SOUTH WALES BORDERERS"

but you can just about make out beneath this

"HEAD QUARTERS XXXXX BATTALION ROYAL WELCH FUSILIERS"

Its on the side of a building which currently serves as the court - I don't know the history of the building though.

My questions, to anyone with a more in-depth knowledge of the Welsh regiments than I have are:

1 - Would the 5th Bn SWB be WW1 era or would the original RWF sign be the more likely candidate

2 - Did the XX Bn RWF become the 5th Bn SWB, and if so, when?

3 - What would the (unreadable) Bn no likely be on the older RWF sign?

4 - Is there any recognised method of ensuring the sign gets protection? Its obviously survived this long and AFAIK its in no immediate danger, but for all I know someone may be planning on hiring a jetwasher to clean the building tomorrow !!

Any info gratefully received.

Thanks

Mike

[Dragon]

Hello Mike

What an intriguing picture.

Does the embryonic entry on the Newtown page of the Drill Halls project, here, fit in with your discovery?

We loaded the Montgomery pages a while ago and I haven't had the opportunity to follow up all the Welsh drill halls yet, although I have some information from which I'll copy something below. If you would let me know the place name (street), I can follow this up.

David Langley very kindly sent me information from which this is extracted. I don’t have the confidence to do more than quote it:

"In 1897, authority was granted to Major Edward Pryce Jones, Member of Parliament for the Montgomeryshire Boroughs, to form a battalion of Volunteer Rifles, in the County of Montgomeryshire, to be known as The 5th Volunteer Battalion South Wales Borderers.

The Headquarters were established at Newtown, and two companies were also raised there; in addition the Newtown Silver Band enlisted en bloc. ... " [Do you want more?]

(The Story of the Seventh 1908 – 1914)

Gwyn

[clive_hughes]

Hello Mike,

As Gwyn says, the original unit was the 5th Vol Battn., SWB. They contributed men to the Volunteer Service Companies of the SWB during the Boer War and in 1907 their strength was recorded as 549 out of a maximum establishment of 596.

In 1908 they became the 7th (Merioneth and Montgomery) Battalion, RWF (TF). The old 1/7th served at Suvla Bay,Gallipoli and later the Egypt/Palestine campaign in the 53rd Welsh Division. In the new battalion, the HQ and "B" Company were at Newtown.

The other county TF unit was of course the Montgomeryshire Yeomanry, with its HQ in Welshpool and "C" Squadron in Newtown.

On this basis I think that the "older" RWF sign must in fact be for the newer 7th RWF, but maybe the painting job hasn't lasted as well as the previous sign???

Cheers,

LST_164

[Graeme Fisher]

Wonderful, Mike.

Glad you photographed it - as you say, might not be there tomorrow, but your timely picture preserves it in e-space on the Forum and quite possibly drillhalls.org

I don't suppose you noticed what the carved motto over the door said?

It's people like you who make projects and websites like ours so worthwhile. And we depend on your input, because no individual can cover it all, but everyone who adds something enhances the greater knowledge.

Thanks for sharing it

Graeme

[serreroad]

Thanks all. I have PM'd Gwyn ref the Drill Halls project and I will be only too pleased to help.

LST_164 - many thanks for the info. I would have put good money on the SWB sign being newer, but the facts speak for themselves. I can now see that there is a big "7th" written in for the RWF, so that's solved that little mystery. As you suggest, the later paint job is obviously very inferior and has virtually disappeared leaving the SWB sign more prominent. BTW, do you know where the Drill Hall was in Welshpool?

Graeme - I am especially glad I photo'd it now, since it has added to my knowledge and has hopefully contributed to someone else's collection too. Nice to know I'm not the only anorak out there!! I will certainly check what the motto is and take a pic of it. The building is one of 2 almost matching structures, built side by side - the other one is (or was) the Police Station, the entrance to which you can see in the foreground.

Thanks everyone. Keep any info coming and I will get some more pics asap.

Mike

[Dragon]

Parts of the database are online (see signature) and accessed from the menu at the left hand side of the page. We add to the pages as information comes to light and we're adding counties regularly. I've had contact with the RWF about its drill halls. I'm certain that someone local would be able to tease out information from local resources.

Thanks for your reply, Mike. I'll be in touch. It's a bit late now and I'm not thinking clearly.

Oh - as to how to preserve a wall painting: my first port of call would probably be the local Heritage Officer. I've found such people very approachable and enthusiastic.

Gwyn

[clive_hughes]

Mike,

Can't claim much knowledge of the Drill Halls of central Wales and the Borders, but if you can find in a local reference library/county records office a set of the old 6-inch : 1 mile scale (1:10,000) or larger OS maps with editions dating from the 1900s to 1940s, the Drill Halls are usually marked and named (depending on dates of construction & use). Gwyn's site is probably your best online guide.

Just for reference, the following were the company/squadron locations for the area in 1911:

7th (Merioneth and Montgomery) RWF: HQ Newtown, A Coy Llanidloes, B Coy Newtown, C Coy Welshpool, D Coy Machynlleth, E Coy Dolgellau, F Coy Towyn, G Coy Blaenau Ffestiniog, H Coy Bala.

Montgomeryshire Yeomanry: HQ Welshpool, A Sqn Llanfyllin, B Sqn Welshpool, C Sqn Newtown, D Sqn Llandrindod Wells.

By all means draw the attention of the local authorities to the sign - it's a genuine piece of 100-year-old history and would be a shame to lose it.

Cheers,

LST_164

[Dragon]

Maps are usually very helpful and we have quite a few on drillhalls.org, reproduced with permission.

It has proved very hard to locate addresses of drill halls in north and central Wales. I’ve been in touch with the RWF Regimental Museum, various battalion HQs and RFCA for Wales (the old TAVR), with little success. I have to say that the replies I’ve had generally were along the lines of sincere regret that the information has not been preserved. (RFCA has lists of current properties.) One respected figure sees this as a failure on the part of the regiment to realise the significance of records to future researchers.

It has been suggested to me that Y Ddraig Goch, the Regiment Journal, would not contain actual addresses of drill halls in its reports from the TA, so I haven’t even tried looking. (Apparently the four battalions that existed before and during the Great War were re-formed after it, so the drill halls would have been the same.)

I have been informed that the locations of drill halls later in the 20c would have most probably have been the same as those used during the Great War and I have maps from Vol VI of the Regimental Records of the RWF showing the locations of drill halls between 1946 and 1959. In mid-Wales, these include Newtown, Llanidloes, and Welshpool as well as those nearer the coast.

You asked about Welshpool. The RFCA at Maindy Barracks suggested to me that it’s possible that The Armoury at Brook Street, Welshpool, WY21 7LA is a pre-1918 drill hall currently in use.

Just for the record, it’s Graeme’s Project, all 3600 unit locations of it. I merely have the fun of playing round with archives and librarians and cameras and old buildings and copytext for the website. I can pick and choose. Graeme did the absolutely monumental work of assembling the source data with which I can play.

Gwyn

[Dragon]

By all means draw the attention of the local authorities to the sign - it's a genuine piece of 100-year-old history and would be a shame to lose it.

Indeed. It's quirky and unusual features such as this which make British street scenes so characterful. Recently I stirred up something in the town I live in when I discovered that an interesting piece of street heritage was going to be casually destroyed [the doors, Graeme] and I found the Heritage Officer most helpful. The local authority can tell you whom to contact. I also found that perusing the Conservation Principles on the English Heritage website here (page 17 onwards is particularly relevant) gave me some useful ideas of what to say. I contacted the local paper, who made a story of it. Incidentally, to the huge annoyance of the anti-heritage vandals, we won.

Gwyn

[serreroad]

Thanks all. I will certainly pursue the matter with the local heritage officer later this week. I will also check out the drill hall in Welshpool to see if it has any distinguishing features. (I have some Welshpool history books too, so they may provide some additional clues.) Rest assured any info gleaned will be reported back to the drill halls project.

Mike

[serreroad]

I went to take some additional pics today and actually managed to get in, thanks to a very personable engineer who is using the building for storage. The slightly deflating news is that there is absolutely nothing of any significance inside - I don't think anything has disappeared - it looks like its always been a pretty plain building. At least that's satiated my curiosity....

[Dragon]

Just saying thank you, Mike. I'll be in touch off forum. We appreciate your interest.

Gwyn

[serreroad]

Just to correct a factual error above, THIS IS NOT THE COURT BUILDING. The original Court and Police Stn are in the detached building next door (similar style & era). So it looks like this was probably built as a Drill hall, or maybe taken over for that purpose quite early in its history.

Mike

[Dragon]

Thank you, Mike. Since you posted the above, I've trawled several turn-of-the-century Directories and my preferred resources in search of more information; unfortunately I'm no further on. I've sent you an email about this.

Gwyn

[Dragon]

I've updated the Newtown page in drillhalls.org. We're very grateful to Mike and Clive for the information.

Mike, please let us know in due course what happens when you contact the heritage people.

Gwyn

[alpoole1]

Hi all

I spotted this a couple of weeks back and went back to take a pic today. In case you can't read it it says

"THE HEAD QUARTERS OF THE 5TH VOL BATTALION SOUTH WALES BORDERERS"

but you can just about make out beneath this

"HEAD QUARTERS XXXXX BATTALION ROYAL WELCH FUSILIERS"

Its on the side of a building which currently serves as the court - I don't know the history of the building though.

My questions, to anyone with a more in-depth knowledge of the Welsh regiments than I have are:

1 - Would the 5th Bn SWB be WW1 era or would the original RWF sign be the more likely candidate

2 - Did the XX Bn RWF become the 5th Bn SWB, and if so, when?

3 - What would the (unreadable) Bn no likely be on the older RWF sign?

4 - Is there any recognised method of ensuring the sign gets protection? Its obviously survived this long and AFAIK its in no immediate danger, but for all I know someone may be planning on hiring a jetwasher to clean the building tomorrow !!

Any info gratefully received.

Thanks

Mike

As an Army Cadet in the early 1970's I spent many a weekend in that building. They used to have a "Davy Fire Escape" fitted to the top floor windows, this was basically a sling absiel on a gear system, that you could lower a person to the ground floor via the outside wall....Great fun for 12yr olds with nothing else to do. Inside the building was pretty much as you would expect of a pre war army building...lots of space..beds and bare walls.

The locals always referred to it as the Drill Hall, and was pretty much a fixture of this small town. Many of the staff there had fought with the Royal Welch in WW2

Thanks for the memory Serreroad