Royal Field Artillery Regiment Numbers

[Michael O'Neil]

Hello All,

I'm trying to find out a bit more abount my great grandfather - Joseph Brennan.

I have his WW1 medals at home - he had the following:

Victory, British and 1914-15 Star.

An engraving states: J. H. Brennan, Bombr. RFA. 4428.

Have found a medal card at the National Archives which appears to match (i.e. RFA and 3 medals) and it gives rank as Gunner and Regiment number 98145.

Can anyone give me any info as to how to find out about Regiment numbers (history, formed, rosters, etc) and what is the 4428 number on his medals. Have tried looking up on the internet but can only find out about division, etc numbers.

Regards - Michael O'Neil

[Coldstreamer]

welcome

the MIC on line are not 100% accurate - you can search for some service papers A-B on the net now (see related threads)

[MelPack]

Hello Michael

You need to exercise a little caution in discounting the other five Joseph Brennans unless you have already downloaded their MICs and none of the others are entitled to the 1914-15 trio.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...mp;mediaarray=*

If the medals are engraved withh 4428 then this would have been Joseph's service number at the point of arrival in the theatre of war. It could signify a territorial unit with a possible transfer to a regular unit if the 98145 is your man. As Ian (Coldstreamer) says, the MICs are not infallible.

Do as he suggests and search ancestry.co.uk (subscription) and see what you can come up with. If you have no luck then you will need to check the RFA Medal Roll for further leads.

Regards

Mel

[Stebie9173]

This MIC looks rather suspicious:

Medal card of Brennan, James H

Corps Regiment No Rank

Royal Field Artillery 4482 Bombardier

Royal Field Artillery 4482 Bombardier

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=3

Right rank, right second initial and surname.

Wrong first name and number but the number is very similar.

It is possible that the MIC has been mis-transcribed to the Index.

Is there any other information you have? Date of birth, place of birth, residence in 1914-18, whether he was wounded, etc ?

Steve.

[MelPack]

Steve

Another stroke of genius!

Regards

Mel

[Michael O'Neil]

Thanks for the speedy responses - WOW! - I'll try to answer them all at once.

Some interesting and curious info in the replies:

My Great grandfather was born 1882 Liverpool and lived there all his life (died 1979). He was a tram driver and/or a tailor before WW1 and later a tailor. OK.

2 of his brothers perished - Thomas and James - another Edward survived (later QTRM in WW2). 2 brothers were supposed to have been in the RFA and 2 in the 8th Irish Liverpool Regt.

Conflicting info I have says that

1. He was supposed to have served on the front with one of his brothers (don't know which one).

2. He was kept in the UK because of his job (needed on the home front).

3. He was in the army but stationed in Wales as a despatch rider and never left the UK.

I preferred to believe proposition 1. because of the reliability of the source (Joseph's son - my great uncle Jim) and the medals seemed to confirm this - J. H. Brennan - naturally assuming the J. was Joseph. Two of my Aunts however state that Joseph never had a middle initial at all and were surprised to see the H. They conflict each other though in giving propositions 2. and 3.

I saw the other Joseph Brennans but downloaded only the one with initial H. I did notice that the others will probably be on the same pdf as they've virtually the same image ref no: 532362, 3, 4, 5, 6 /9404. I stopped short of spending the extra £3.50!!! I've got full Ancestry.com access and saw the Service Records - No Luck - however I'm not sure that the supposed A-B part of this database is complete as just a wildcard search on Brennan lists very few people from Liverpool - too few to believe that the database is complete.

Now strange thing Joseph's brother James did have an initial in the 1901 census - H !!! He too was born in Liverpool in 1880 and was an Insurance Agent before the War. So did these medals belong to James and were given to Joseph who gave them to my grandmother (his daughter) before finally coming to my father. I know that Joseph would never have claimed them for himself so maybe their original ownership has just been mistranslated in time.

To summarise I'll check out the James H. Brennan lead first as well as the other index card (6 for the price of 1). I'm also in the process of checking out his brothers at Ancestry and I've a couple of leads at the CWGC regarding the 2 who died. Unfortunately the Museum of Liverpool life is closed whilst they build a new museum (City of Culture and all that) so the 8th Irish (Kings) records are unavailable for some time.

Cheers.

[Coldstreamer]

having medals with the wrong number on them is quite common

[Stebie9173]

The only J H Brennan that shows up in the Commonwelath War Graves site is:

Name: BRENNAN

Initials: J H

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Royal Army Medical Corps

Unit Text: 31st General Hospital

Age: 24

Date of Death: 18/09/1916

Service No: 8129

Additional information: Son of John and Hannah Brennan, of 10, Palmerston Rd., Southport. Native of Southport.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: N. 29.

Cemetery: PORT SAID WAR MEMORIAL CEMETERY

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=110361

With the Next of Kin details show we can either confirm or discard him as one of the brothers.

There are rather more J Brennans though...

The only RFA J Brennan came from Greenock in Scotland.

Steve.

[MelPack]

Hello Michael

That is a convoluted tale!

I think the first rule of researching a relative in these circumstances is to forget all the family folklore!

I have checked the CWGC and the only casualty for a J. Brennan RFA is this one:

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=139808

but he was only nineteen years of age, so he cannot be one of the brothers if born in the 1880s.

If all the medals are inscribed with 4428 RFA and James definitely died then Joseph still looks like your best bet.

Do download the card identified by Steve.

Regards

Mel

[MelPack]

Michael

There are two potential casualties for the King's Liverpool that could fit:

James

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=507802

Thomas

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=824481 or

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=141960

In which case, if family folklore is correct then Edward should have been in the RFA.

regards

Mel

[MelPack]

Michael

The family folklore may not be such bull****

Have a look at this MIC:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=5

Regards

Mel

[MelPack]

And there is an even closer number here:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=5

In fact it would be wise to check them all out:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...mp;mediaarray=*

[MelPack]

Michael

It would be great if you could tie two of the MICs for J and Edward together with the same date of entry.

[Michael O'Neil]

OK folks.

Thanks for all the replies especially one's regarding incorrect details on MIC's, etc. It seems that this fallibility continues today! After re-checking with my father the number on the Medals IS 4482 AND NOT 4428 as stated earlier. So hats off to Stebie9173. The mystery is solved - the medals must have belonged to Joseph's brother James - J. H. Brennan hence putting James in the RFA.

So which brother served with him in the RFA - Joseph, Thomas or Edward?

Need to check out all CWGC records for Thomas (RFA or 8th Irish) as I know he died. I've downloaded all Brennans (RFA and Liverpool related) - one match is very interesting as it lists parents - right names for both, age out by 2 years though and the address puts them in another part of the city from where they appeared to live - not an impossibility as I've only up to the 1901 census to go on.

My records for Edward state that it was he that served in the RFA (with Joseph - now not true) and that he was a Quarter Master in the RASC WW2 - so I'll check out MIC's for him.

That then leaves Joseph. Again if family info is correct then he should have been with Thomas in the 8th Irish - but as for his military service I don't know. Pity the Kings Regt Liverpool details are not available at the moment.

Regards to all again.

Michael.

[Michael O'Neil]

Hi all - I'm updating this thread in the hope that some expert might be able to advise as to the likelihood of progressing with the following:

What I now know for certain regarding the four Brennan brothers who served is as follows:

James H. Brennan, Bmbr, RFA, 4482.

I have the MIC from ancestry for this (Victory and British medals) and I am in possession of the 1915 Star - James was the brother of my great grandfather and died 1958 in Liverpool.

Thomas J. Brennan, Pte, Liverpool Regt, 1598 and 305152.

I have the MIC from ancestry (Victory, British and 1915 Star). He died 19 July 1917 and is buried Vlamertinghe, Belgium. I have the confirming info from CWGC (family details included!) and have checked out the details at the local church - Private 305152 1st/8th Liverpool Irish Battalion, Kings Regiment.

So that leaves me with 2 remaining brothers and the following conundrum

Joseph Brennan born 31 March 1892 Liverpool - there's no medals in family possession that I know of at present - survived the war.

Edward Brennan born 1897 Liverpool - survived the war and was a Qtr Master in the RASC in WW2 (would this info help?)

Joseph's son James seemed to think that his dad served in the RFA with one of his brothers and that it was Edward - however this given the above might have been James. By my reckoning he didn't sound too sure about his dad's regiment or with which brother but he was sure at least about Joseph serving with one of his brothers. He also said that one of the brothers was in the same regiment that my grandfather was in during WW2 - the 8th Irish so this must have been Thomas. As I said in earlier messages, family info says that Joseph was kept in the UK for a while and that he was also stationed in Wales. There is a photo of him as a dispatch rider but you can't see any recognisable insignia. OK I know what you'll say about family info but generally it's been pretty reliable for me. I do have quite a big pool of surviving family members to draw from including 2 of Joseph's children and many aunts and uncles who remember their uncles - generally the info tallies up but sometimes it can be difficult ascertaining facts from vague recollections.

So I've got 2 'realistic' avenues to go down - the RFA or a Liverpool Regiment - anything else will be like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack.

I've downloaded all Brennan MICs for both of the above regiments from ancestry - does anyone know how accurate these are and are they the same as at the National Archives?

I can check all the Brennans found at the Museum of Liverpool Life as they hold the King's Liverpool records and I have the service numbers from the MICs.

So presuming my Gt Uncle was correct in that his father served in the RFA - what's the likelihood of finding him and then Edward?

[Rockdoc]

The records for anyone who served after 1920 aren't at Kew but have been retained by the Army so you may be able to get Edward's service records from them. Long, Long Trail has the details in "Research a Soldier".

Keith