Defence of Belgrade 1912

[Madweasel]

Dear All

I hope that this is not too far off topic - apologies if this is so.

I am researching the military career of an Able Seaman from Bow, London, who died of wounds received at Zeebrugge, 23 April 1918. He received the Serbian Silver Star for Bravery in 1912 for his part in the Defence of Belgrade. The libraries that I have access to have extremely little information on the history of the Liberation of the Balkans from Turkish rule, but before I take my search to the library of the IWM could someone please give me a potted history of that engagement, why and how personnel of the RN were involved and what the circumstances of an AB receiving the Silver Star would have been?

Many thanks in anticipation for your help - and please excuse my ignorance on this matter if the answers are obvious.

best wishes

John

[bob lembke]

[John;

Welcome to the Forum!

I know a fair amount about Serbija and Turkey, but little about the Balkan Wars of that era. I will watch the thread to see if I can interject something useful. You should state his full name, which I imagine that you have. A Seaman Stojanovic would suggest a different story than a Seaman Sutherland or O'Neal. He may have been a Serb or other friendly local, or could the British Embassy have personnel there, like the US Marines at US embassies about the world? But it is likely that there was not a British Embassy at Beograd at that time. Possibly a British consulate? When did he enlist? Some western Europeans got involved in these wars as volunteers for the Christians against the heathen Turk.

Let me hijack this thread for a second. Could the Serbian Pal with whom I corresponded a bit 2-3 months ago contact me? You found my old friend Mirjana in Beograd. I have lost a computer due to a massive "crash", and with it our correspondence and lots of contact information. I have poked about for you without success. (I am hoping that the very helpful Serbian Pal notices the thread named "Belgrade".)

Bob Lembke

[MartH]

Hi

I've looked at some biblograhies, and there was very little written in english language on this subject, hence you not finding much.

Happy to scan and send you the 2 pages (all written about 1913) if you PM your email address.

Regards

Mart

[Madweasel]

Thanks Bob and MartH

My AB is Edwin Dunmow of Bow, London. I gave the date of the defence as 1912, having come across a ref to that action in that year on the web - but in truth I am not really sure when he received his medal. His Service Record is a bit obscure. The stamp 'For service in Land Operation' is undated but is alongside his record for 1911-12. He was on the H.M.S Exmouth at the time, a Duncan Class Battleship.

Thanks again and MArtH, I will contact you now.

best wishes both

shep

[bob lembke]

By his name it seems apparent that he was not a Serb. Possibly he was on a landing party, say on the Agean coast, that did some service that advanced the Serb cause. But the info says "defense of Beograd"? Serbia is land-locked, but the Danube flows past Beograd, but the idea of sending a battleship hundreds of miles up the Danube during other people's war would be crazy; I'm also not sure that the navigation would have worked. Possibly the Brits were in the Black Sea and sent a landing party up the river (several hundred miles) to, say, take out UK citizens caught in the fighting. Why don't you go to the naval sub-forum and post a question as to where the battleship was there, and about some sort of landing party.

Also sometimes elites from various countries handed out their medals to various people. Some Germans (such as my father) got the Turkish "Gallipoli Star" for service there, but other officers got them who never were there; perhaps a visiting High Turkish officer gave it to a junior German officer who had the duty of guiding him about manuvers or demonstations in Germany or Galicia.

Possibly your guy carried the luggage of a Serbian princess? Serbia, otherwise very poor, had the luxury of two royal families, who sometimes managed to knock off the other royal family; in 1902 officers loyal to one family (I think the Karagiorgic (sp?) family) killed the King and Queen of Serbia, and threw their naked bodies out of an upper floor of the royal palace in Beograd onto the sidewalk below, an act that was not considered very polite by the rest of Europe. The founder of the Karagjoric dynasty was a guy say 1810 called Hajduk Karagiorgic, which roughly translates as "The bandit who is Black George's Son". I believe that it was a great honor to address someone as "Bandit", sort of like a Muslim called Haji or Haja (female) as he or her had taken the Haj to Mecca. Kara, by the way, is Turkish for "black"; due to their history, Serbs seem to (or did) have two words for "black", one from the Turkish, the other from the Slavic, "cerno" or varients thereof.

I hope that the above was entertaining, and a bit instructive, but it is a bit OT. A real Serb would, I am sure, find a few errors and slight misspellings. A assure the true Serb that I am very fond of Serbia, that I am not Serb-bashing.

About 35 years ago I bought several PCs of Karagjoric (the original "Black George") from a street vendor in Beograd, and he was so pleased that a foreigner was interested in him that he practically did handsprings on the sidewalk.

Post a question or two on the naval sub-forum. I think that it is the fourth down from the top of the list of sub-fora.

Bob Lembke

[Nikolay]

Dear All

I hope that this is not too far off topic - apologies if this is so.

I am researching the military career of an Able Seaman from Bow, London, who died of wounds received at Zeebrugge, 23 April 1918. He received the Serbian Silver Star for Bravery in 1912 for his part in the Defence of Belgrade. The libraries that I have access to have extremely little information on the history of the Liberation of the Balkans from Turkish rule, but before I take my search to the library of the IWM could someone please give me a potted history of that engagement, why and how personnel of the RN were involved and what the circumstances of an AB receiving the Silver Star would have been?

Many thanks in anticipation for your help - and please excuse my ignorance on this matter if the answers are obvious.

best wishes

John

Hi, John

I would suggest that this mariner participated in the defence of Belgrade against Austro-hungarian forces in 1914-1915. There was no such thing as defence of Belgrade in 1912 as the Serbian army moved fairly quick into Ottoman territory and Ottomans never even crossed the Serbian frontier yet alone going close to Belgrade. Actually after just a month almost all the territory of the Ottoman empire in Europe was occupied by Bulgarian, Serbian and Greek armies except some part of Albania and the territory between Istanbul and Chataldga lines.

[Nikolay]

Possibly your guy carried the luggage of a Serbian princess? Serbia, otherwise very poor, had the luxury of two royal families, who sometimes managed to knock off the other royal family; in 1902 officers loyal to one family (I think the Karagiorgic (sp?) family) killed the King and Queen of Serbia, and threw their naked bodies out of an upper floor of the royal palace in Beograd onto the sidewalk below, an act that was not considered very polite by the rest of Europe. The founder of the Karagjoric dynasty was a guy say 1810 called Hajduk Karagiorgic, which roughly translates as "The bandit who is Black George's Son". I believe that it was a great honor to address someone as "Bandit", sort of like a Muslim called Haji or Haja (female) as he or her had taken the Haj to Mecca. Kara, by the way, is Turkish for "black"; due to their history, Serbs seem to (or did) have two words for "black", one from the Turkish, the other from the Slavic, "cerno" or varients thereof.

Bob Lembke

Well, the real name of the guy was Kara Gjorgje Petrovic which roughly translates as "The Black George, son of Peter". He was born in 1745 and executed in 1817. He became the lider of the First Serbian uprising in 1804 and the first Knez (Prince) of Serbia. He is one of the national heroes of Serbia.

"Hajduk" means indeed "bandit" in Turkush. But these "Hajduks" were regarded very differently from their fellow Christian countrymen than from the Ottoman authorities. And many of them became sort of national heroes for Bulgarians, Serbs or Greeks. Different people, different perspectives...

[TwoBob]

Hello,

RR Admiral Troubridge lead the British Naval Mission to Belgrade.Its mission was to improve Danube water defences. Troubridge had 30 seamen and 40 marines.

Bob

[Madweasel]

Hello,

RR Admiral Troubridge lead the British Naval Mission to Belgrade.Its mission was to improve Danube water defences. Troubridge had 30 seamen and 40 marines.

Bob

Thanks for this Bob. In which year did this happen? I suspect 1914 - my 1912 suspicion seems to have been a mistake.

shep

[TwoBob]

Hello,

Troubridge was demoted for the Goebens & Breslau fiasco.In December 1914 he was authorised to raise the Navy Military Mission to Serbia.It arrived in Belgrade,22 Feb 1915.The AH gunboats were there target.

Bob

[Madweasel]

Hello,

Troubridge was demoted for the Goebens & Breslau fiasco.In December 1914 he was authorised to raise the Navy Military Mission to Serbia.It arrived in Belgrade,22 Feb 1915.The AH gunboats were there target.

Bob

Thank you for this. That is the lead I needed.

shep

[Guest roberthc]

My grandfather, Henry M Fitch was flag lieutenant to Admiral Troubridge during this mission. He documented it as part of his memoirs:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mis-spent-Youth-journal-including-portrait/dp/B000X9HEW0/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1346761942&sr=8-14

(Unfortunately out of print)

The second half of the book is from his diary during the retreat from Belgrade. Unfortunately stocks of the book were destroyed during second world war - the family has a few copies (but I haven't inherited one yet!). It is a good read - life in the navy before and during the first world war.

Should anyone come across a copy - or know of good resources to search for one - I'd be very interested...

Robert Cowham