Leutnant der Reserve Werner Voss

[ragamuffin]

Trying to do research on Richthofen. Came across this man, which states he was a better aviater than Richthofen.

Leutnant der Reserve Werner Voss, from Krefeld, Germany, was Germany’s 4th highest ranking ace of World War 1. With 48 kills to his credit he is still considered by many to be the greatest pilot of that war, having skills that even surpassed Manfred von Richthofen, the “Red Baron”. On September 23, 1917 he became involved in what is known to be one of the greatest dogfights of World War 1. While out on patrol he came across a flight of six British SE5’s from 56 Squadron, each flown by a famous ace. For over ten minutes Voss singlehandedly fought the aces without retreating. He inflicted considerable damage on all five aircraft before his own engine finally seized and he was sent plummeting to the ground by Lt. Arthur Rhys-Davids. Major James McCudden, who was also involved in the fight, said of him later, “His flying was wonderful, his courage magnificent and in my own opinion he is the bravest German airman whom it has been my privilege to see fight.” Leutnant Werner Voss was just 20 years old.

How true is this, as I believe this has come from only a few people (sources?)

Danke.

[ragamuffin]

Sorry

This from the prints I collect which are fantastic.

http://www.oldgloryprints.com/Smith.htm

Aviation art at its finest.

Danke

[Stebie9173]

You'll make Russell blush. He's a member of this Forum with his identity cunningly disguised behind the screen name of "Russell Smith".

Steve.

[ypresman]

Hi

Does he know a Barrie A.F Clark?

He does similar paintings on aviation.

Just found one of his signed ones at a car boot.....

Cheers

Marc.

[Adrian Roberts]

This kind of debate points up the difficulty of defining greatness. Purely in terms of victory scores, many men had the potential to score more victories than MVR but were killed first. Is survival an indicator of greatness? Sometimes they died from sheer bad luck, sometimes they made one mistake, sometimes several - does the latter count against them? Immelmann and Boelcke were scoring at the same time and at the same rate as each other, but Immelmann was killed after seventeen victories, Boelcke after 40 five months later. Who was the greatest? They were flying at a time when there was less aerial activity and less effective technology than MVR. Philip Fullard was scoring at a rate that would have made him Britain's ace of aces but he broke his leg playing football.

I believe that Manfred von Richthofen was one of the greatest - you can argue for ever about who was absolutely the greatest - because he was a great leader as well as a great pilot. Also, he was never the same after his head injury of June 1917 - he suffered from headaches, nausea and depression, but he went on flying even though he was sometimes physically sick before a flight. In later years he would have been ordered off combat as unfit. No paracetamol in those days - if I have a headache I go to bed.

None of which is to detract from Voss's courage and skill.

[ypresman]

This kind of debate points up the difficulty of defining greatness. Purely in terms of victory scores, many men had the potential to score more victories than MVR but were killed first. Is survival an indicator of greatness? Sometimes they died from sheer bad luck, sometimes they made one mistake, sometimes several - does the latter count against them? Immelmann and Boelcke were scoring at the same time and at the same rate as each other, but Immelmann was killed after seventeen victories, Boelcke after 40 five months later. Who was the greatest? They were flying at a time when there was less aerial activity and less effective technology than MVR. Philip Fullard was scoring at a rate that would have made him Britain's ace of aces but he broke his leg playing football.

I believe that Manfred von Richthofen was one of the greatest - you can argue for ever about who was absolutely the greatest - because he was a great leader as well as a great pilot. Also, he was never the same after his head injury of June 1917 - he suffered from headaches, nausea and depression, but he went on flying even though he was sometimes physically sick before a flight. In later years he would have been ordered off combat as unfit. No paracetamol in those days - if I have a headache I go to bed.

None of which is to detract from Voss's courage and skill.

Hi

Do you know why Richthofen never received the Oakleaves on his Pour le Merite?

Been trying to find out for an age now...

Cheers

Marc.

[Adrian Roberts]

Do you know why Richthofen never received the Oakleaves on his Pour le Merite?

Been trying to find out for an age now...

Cheers

Marc.

Marc

I found this link; it gives a list of all the holders of the PLM with Oakleaves. There are no air aces on the list that I could see; they mostly seem to be Princes and Generals

http://www.pourlemerite.org/

This was confirmed when I looked at the Wikipedia entry on the PLM. Seems that MVR was not elegible for the Oakleaves which was mainly awarded to staff officers; he was awarded a special version of the Order of the Red Eagle instead. Unlike the VC, the PLM was not awarded exclusively for gallantry.

Adrian

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Surely the best ace and the best aviator are not necessarily the same. The best ace is judged on numbers, whilst aviator means skill in the air. So MVR is the best ace and the best aviator was Snoopy for the skill of flying a dog kennel!