Women on WW1 War memorials-exclusion inclusion.

[toofatfortakeoff]

If this is an age old topic then my apologies. Maybe it should be in memorials section.

Following some correspondence from Oz, I found that one of the Barton upon Humber men of N. Lincs who died had a sister killed on War service. She is not on the war memorial at Barton as most likely she was a woman or had been forgotten. A couple of women killed in WW2 are listed. A man who died having an innoculation having never sniffed the Flanders air is also listed. Is this fair? This aside there also are a few men who were not listed who had a right to be on the cenotaph. Our own particular memorial because of these disparities led to some fairly big divisions in the town, and money changed hands over the kerfuffle over who was to be on it. Anyone else heard of such undignified squabbling over their own memorial?

Are there in fact any memorials (Silvertown aside if there is one) for women who died in the service of their country in WW1.

[John_Hartley]

Are there in fact any memorials (Silvertown aside if there is one) for women who died in the service of their country in WW1.

I know of one memorial in the Stockport area which includes a woman. She died at the end of 1919, in Warsaw, serving with the Friends Relief Committee.

As to why someone isnt on a local memorial, I can think of many reasons, including:-

They didnt fit the local criteria for inclusion

They'd moved away and had been forgotten

They only had a tenuous connection with the area

They had no family left locally to include them

The family wouldnt accept they were dead

The family couldnt stand the ba*tard

The close relatives were still grief stricken

The close relatives couldnt be ar&sed

The wife had remarried and there were difficulties with the new husband

The family were not Anglicans and didnt want his name on the memorial in C of E church grounds

The family were not Anglicans and were excluded from having the name on the memorial.

He died well after discharge and no-one thought he fitted the criteria.

Having his name inscribed on a "graven image" offended the family's religious beliefs.

John

[stiletto_33853]

Some of the memorials local to me do have women on the memorials, and some have a complete list of all the women that served in whatever capacity.

Also, due to the Zeppelin and Gotha raids on the town and the local area, some carry the names of the women killed in these raids although not serving in the forces. This applies also to WW2 and the air raids locally.

There are also men that should have been included but at the time the memorial was discussed had no family left in the area to put their name forward, hence their name does not appear. On the other side of this we have men included who to the best of my knowledge had never put foot in the county let alone the town, but had relatives locally who put their name forward for inclusion.

You would need to find out, if possible, the criteria set by the local war memorial committee for inclusion. Locally, the gardens and memorial were there for the people to remember their loved ones lost during the war, whether they were a nephew who lived in the outer Hebrides or someone that lived with them. There are also several names on the memorial to soldiers who died of training accidents before they even set foot overseas, they died in their countries service and had their names put forward for inclusion, which were accepted, so why should they not be included.

Andy

[toofatfortakeoff]

Also, due to the Zeppelin and Gotha raids on the town and the local area, some carry the names of the women killed in these raids

An unusual individual memorial is in Walsall is above a pub and it is to the lady mayoress who was hit by a Zeppelin bomb, killing her instantly in a day;ight raid It is all that has ever happened in Walsaw I believe.

Part from a VC winner of course.

Cant remember the exact graphics but the Zeppelins must've thought where the hell is this?

[GraemeClarke]

While on the subject of women and Walsall in particular, the below lady appears on the Walsall WW1 ROH

Gertrude BYTHEWAY

Voluntary Aid

Died at sea on Monday 31 December 1917

Gertrude was the youngest daughter of George and Lottie Bytheway of 22, Foden Road and was the first member of the British Red Cross Society to give her life during the war.

Gertrude gave up a position as a teacher in a school at Palfrey in 1914 in order to take up voluntary aid work. She had completed two years service at Nottingham Military Hospital when a call was made asking for volunteers for overseas service. Gertrude was one of the first to volunteer.

Gertrude was killed when the transport ship she was on was mined in the entrance to Alexandria. It is possible that Gertrude was aboard H.M.S. “Osmanieh” which was sunk with the loss of 24 persons. She was 37 years of age.

Gertrude is buried in Alexandria (Hadra) War Cemetery in Grave B.42 and is commemorated on the Corporation roll of honour at Walsall Town Hall, the memorial at St Andrews Church, Birchills and on the roll of honour at St Pauls Church, Walsall.

[GraemeClarke]

And just in case anyone is interested, the driver of the tram the Mayoress was travelling in was later killed in the war as below,

Richard SWEENEY

Private M/334351

976th Mechanical Transport Company, Army Service Corps

Died in Iran on Saturday 5 October 1918

Richard was the third son of Martin and Catherine Sweeney and was educated at St Patrick’s Roman Catholic School. He married Annie, her address being given as ‘The Vine Inn’, Blue Lane West, Walsall. A post war address of 2b, Countess Street, Palfrey is also recorded.

Prior to enlisting at Walsall on Thursday 31 May 1917, Richard was employed as a tram driver for the Corporation Tramways. It was actually Richard who was driving the tram in which the Mayoress of Walsall was travelling when it was struck by a Zeppelin’s bomb, killing the Mayoress.

Drafted to Mesopotamia in July 1917, Richard died in Basra Hospital of pneumonia at 37 years of age. The 976th Company served in the Persian Gulf its main role being an auxiliary petrol company.

Richard is buried in Tehran War Cemetery, Iran in Grave V.E.2 and is commemorated on the Corporation roll of honour at Walsall Town Hall.

[SiegeGunner]

Gertrude BYTHEWAY

Voluntary Aid

Died at sea on Monday 31 December 1917

Gertrude was the youngest daughter of George and Lottie Bytheway of 22, Foden Road and was the first member of the British Red Cross Society to give her life during the war.

Something wrong here, surely. Did BRCS really lose no-one in the first three and a half years of the war?

[Alan Tucker]

An unusual individual memorial is in Walsall is above a pub and it is to the lady mayoress who was hit by a Zeppelin bomb, killing her instantly in a day;ight raid It is all that has ever happened in Walsaw I believe.

Part from a VC winner of course.

Cant remember the exact graphics but the Zeppelins must've thought where the hell is this?

Do you know the name and street of the pub? I would not mind taking a photo next time I am in Walsall.

[spoons]

A few female entries from WW1 memorials from this neck of the woods. I could probably find one or two more if I put my mind to it.

Balmaghie – Probr Nurse Marion McQueen

Broughton – Miss Anne Alexander VAD

Dalbeattie – Jeannie T Wright WAAC

Dumfries – Miss R E Robertson Mun Wkr

Dumfries Academy – Nodwell Jane L Nurse

New Galloway – Nurse Jane L Nodwell VAD

(also buried in New Galloway but NOT a war grave)

And of course there is the individual memorial to Elsie Inglis in St Giles Cathedral, Edinburgh.

[Sue Light]

Something wrong here, surely. Did BRCS really lose no-one in the first three and a half years of the war?

She was way down the list of BRCS deaths by date! I did wonder if it was referring to women killed by enemy action, rather than illness or disease, but even then there were those ahead of her - for instance, two VADs [Thomson and Coles] died when 58 General Hospital was bombed on the night of the 30th September 1917.

Here's a picture of Gertrude Bytheway, not the only BRCS casualty either, of the Osmanieh.

[GraemeClarke]

It may be my mistake re Gertrude being the first etc. This was taken from the Walsall papers of the time.

I am very grateful to you, Sue, for placing a picture of Gertrude on the Forum, thanks.

I know the below is way off tack but someone may be interested. There is also a female on the Walsall WW2 ROH which really needs more investigating. This is all I have at present.

Doris Gertrude DICKEN

Private W/88841

Auxiliary Territorial Service

Died in Egypt on Sunday 12 September 1943

Doris lived with her sister, Mrs Hitchen, at 79, Arundel Street, Walsall and was the daughter of a former Sergeant in the Walsall Police Force.

For 15 years prior to enlisting she was employed at Matthew Harvey and Company Limited and was a keen follower of the town’s football and cricket clubs.

Enlisting in 1941, she was drafted overseas at Christmas 1942. Newspapers in October 1943 carried the following newspaper article,

“The family have received a cablegram stating that she was shot in the back in a Cairo street and is believed to have been murdered.”

Killed at 33 years of age she is buried in Heliopolis War Cemetery, Egypt in Grave 5.L.1.

[toofatfortakeoff]

Do you know the name and street of the pub? I would not mind taking a photo next time I am in Walsall.

Hi Mate- ok heres the directions because I can't remember for the life of me. Come out of Walsall station and hang right. Down to the bottom of the precinct and you are facing the Asda or Tesco and turn right before it goes up a hill bit to where the market is. (If you were to go left you would go toward the arboretum and the war Memorial) That area is an openish space where you might picture a tram junction. Follow the left hand side of the street for about twenty seconds keeping lookin up. The plaque is high on the wall.

I think the place was a cafe bar or something. Four years ago since i was last there.....

[Chris]

Sean

How are you. The only women i have come across on North Lincs area memorials are Dorothy and Annie Lancaster from Keelby, who are on the village war memorial, and i believe have a seperate plaque in the church. They were both killed on the Lusitania. Can't say i have come across any more locally.

Chris

[Jon6640]

Do you know the name and street of the pub? I would not mind taking a photo next time I am in Walsall.

It's on the corner of Bradford Street and Newport Street, near to the War memorial.

Jon

[BeppoSapone]

If this is an age old topic then my apologies. Maybe it should be in memorials section.

Following some correspondence from Oz, I found that one of the Barton upon Humber men of N. Lincs who died had a sister killed on War service. She is not on the war memorial at Barton as most likely she was a woman or had been forgotten.

Are you saying that this "forgotten" woman was killed by a train? If so, do the family have any connections with Southport?

There is a woman listed on the Southport memorial who, IIRC, Jim Strawbridge told me was killed by a train.

[Jim Strawbridge]

Janet Lois Griffiths died having been struck by a train on a level-crossing in Alexandria, Egypt.

[toofatfortakeoff]

The only women i have come across on North Lincs area memorials are Dorothy and Annie Lancaster from Keelby, who are on the village war memorial, and i believe have a seperate plaque in the church. They were both killed on the Lusitania. Can't say i have come across any more locally.

Chris

Hi Chris this is interesting. Is this Kealby near Gy? So they did put women on after all in some places.

[NRP.HKP]

Hi Chris this is interesting. Is this Kealby near Gy? So they did put women on after all in some places.

The War Memorial in the Buttermarket at Caistor,Lincolnshire,bears,inter alia,the following name -

Sister Martha Gorbutt,- CWGC lists her as 2/Reserve/9/544 QAIMNS and buried in Greenwich.For info.

Apologies- amendment required -CWGC notes memorial plaque in Greenwich Cemetery and date of death as 28.07.1920 but local records state she was buried in Cleethorpes Cemetery on 30.4.1923 - no idea where she was in the interim !

[Jim Strawbridge]

The War Memorial in the Buttermarket at Caistor,Lincolnshire,bears,inter alia,the following name -

Sister Martha Gorbutt,- CWGC lists her as 2/Reserve/9/544 QAIMNS and buried in Greenwich.For info.

Apologies- amendment required -CWGC notes memorial plaque in Greenwich Cemetery and date of death as 28.07.1920 but local records state she was buried in Cleethorpes Cemetery on 30.4.1923 - no idea where she was in the interim !

Caistor, Are you sure of your facts with regards to her removal to Cleethorpes? I only ask because I have a nice photograph of her CWGC headstone in Greenwich provided by Chris Collier in recent times. I cannot believe that the CWGC would be tending an empty grave. Also would you mind getting a photograph of her name on the Caistor War Memorial and sending it to me for my Register that I am preparing? I should be most grateful if you would.

[NRP.HKP]

Caistor, Are you sure of your facts with regards to her removal to Cleethorpes? I only ask because I have a nice photograph of her CWGC headstone in Greenwich provided by Chris Collier in recent times. I cannot believe that the CWGC would be tending an empty grave. Also would you mind getting a photograph of her name on the Caistor War Memorial and sending it to me for my Register that I am preparing? I should be most grateful if you would.

Info from NBI/Lincs FHS vide her DoB 1880 . You would need DoB of Nurse/Sister Martha from TNA etc to confirm. Re photo-I will see what can be done.

[Peter Bennett]

Some Munitions Workers are engraved on war memorials, especially some of the Barnbow ones.

[NRP.HKP]

Info from NBI/Lincs FHS vide her DoB 1880 . You would need DoB of Nurse/Sister Martha from TNA etc to confirm. Re photo-I will see what can be done.

Caistor War Memorial bears date 1920 above her name,forget Cleethorpes.

[keithchristmas]

The name Florence Hogg appears on the Horsforth War Memorial, near Leeds in West Yorkshire. Florence was a nurse in the VAD, and died on the 31/10/1918.

Please see my recent post.

Regards,

Keith

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Do you know the name and street of the pub? I would not mind taking a photo next time I am in Walsall

.

Alan

Grateful for a copy of your photo' if you take one. I am currently researching Pubs with military conncetions and a Zeppelin Raid memorial fits my criteria.

Not sure but the pub may be called The Starting Gate?

The bomb landed right in the town centre, outside the Science and Art Institute in Bradford Place. This bomb claimed three lives including the best known Zeppelin victim, 55 year old Mary Julia Slater, the Lady Mayoress of Walsall. She was a passenger on the number 16 tram. She suffered severe wounds to the chest and abdomen. She was taken to hospital and died several weeks later on Sunday, February 20, 1916 from shock and septicemia. It is fitting that Walsall Cenotaph now stands on the spot where the bomb landed.

Thanks

Dave

[kevin dunion]

The memorial for Anstruther, Fife has one woman on it- she is Elizabeth Slight Johnston who was a telephonist with QMAAC in France She died on Christmas Day 1918 in mysterious circumstances falling from the tower of St Ouen Church in Rouen. I am currently researching her story.

The memorial in Crieff has two women on a panel headed Nursing Service- these are Staff Sister Jessie E. McRobbie and Staff Sister Mary Watson (my wife's great aunt.)