andrewb Posted 7 February , 2007 Share Posted 7 February , 2007 Hello Could anyone help with any further information on the circumstances of death of this airman please? I'm currently doing some local history research and would like to fill in the gaps if possible. I already have the following details from the CWGC website. LISTER, EDWARD ASHTON Rank: Airman 2nd Class Unit Text: Royal Flying School, Le Cretoy (should be Le Crotoy) Age: 20 Date of Death: 02/07/1915 Service No: 4276 Cemetery: ABBEVILLE COMMUNAL CEMETERY As it was a flying school I'm assuming he was in training and probably had an accident but does anyone have more details on the specific incident and the aircraft type and serial number involved? Some background information people may be interested in - Edward Ashton Lister was the grandson of Robert Ashton Lister who established the well-known Lister company in Dursley, Gloucestershire. Lister's manufactured diesel & petrol engines, pumps and agricultural machinery which were sent all over the world. The company is still going today. His father, also called Edward (an unlucky family name) also died at the young age of 27. I'd really appreciate any help. Many thanks Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlight Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 Hi Andy, I can't find anything specific re the accident but can add that Edward Lister joined the RFC ex 5/Gloucester Regiment. However, being early in the War it is most likely that he died whilst flying a Caudron G3, as this type was used extensively for training and reconnaisance in 1915. Le Crotoy is also the aerodrome where the Caudron Brothers manufactured their aircraft. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewb Posted 14 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 14 February , 2007 Hi Steve Thanks for the reply. I can't find anything specific re the accident but can add that Edward Lister joined the RFC ex 5/Gloucester Regiment.Do you happen to know when he transferred to the RFC and what his flying history was up his death? However, being early in the War it is most likely that he died whilst flying a Caudron G3, as this type was used extensively for training and reconnaisance in 1915.Do you know whether the Caudron G3 had a particularly bad reputation as regards flying accidents? Thanks for your help. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickdavis Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 The school at Le Crotoy existed for only a short period during 1915. The equipment was a mixture of 'Shorthorns' and Caudrons. The likliest candidate for the machine in which Lister died is Caudron G.III 5016, which was deleted the day following his death. As he was a 2AM it seems unlikely that he was undergoing pilot training. More likely, he could have been a mechanic on a joy ride. Machines that I've identified as serving with the BEF School are given below. 1846 Maurice Farman Se.11. Ex MF1049 (70-hp Renault 42848). 9 Sqn St Omer dd ex Buc 10.1.1915. 2 Sqn ex 9 Sqn 10.2.1915. 9 Sqn ex 2 Sqn. 4 Sqn dd ex 9 Sqn 25.3.1915. 1 AP St Omer ex 4 Sqn 11.4.1915. 16 Sqn La Gorgue. BEF Flying School Le Crotoy 5.1915. 1857 Maurice Farman Se.11. Ex MF267/1043 (engine 42945). 9 Sqn St Omer dd ex Paris 4.2.1915. 16 Sqn La Gorgue/Chocques dd 24.3.1915. 1 AP St Omer ex 16 Sqn 19.6.1915. Under repair at 1 AD St Omer 30.6.1915. BEF Flying School Le Crotoy dd 9.9.1915. Allotted 3 AP Candas but MIA on delivery flight from Le Crotoy 2.11.1915 (2Lt JB Robinson POW). 1869 Maurice Farman Se.11. Ex MF245 (Renault 42945). 9 Sqn St Omer dd ex Paris 3.3.1915. 2 Sqn Merville dd 5.3.1915. 16 Sqn La Gorgue dd 20.3.1915. 1 AP St Omer dd ex 16 Sqn 1.6.1915. BEF Flying School Le Crotoy dd 17.6.1915 and deleted 6.11.1915. 1886 Caudron G.III. 1 AP St Omer dd 1.4.1915. Deleted, without operational service, 18.5.1915. Re-taken onto RFC charge 1.8.1915. BEF Flying School Le Crotoy until 20.10.1915. Flown to England 10.1915. Allotted to Administrative Wing Farnborough 28.10.1915. 1 RAS Farnborough allotted 2.11.1915. 1893 Maurice Farman Se.11. 70-hp Renault F1850/WD145. BEF Flying School Le Crotoy dd ex Paris 10.4.1915. 1 AP St Omer ex BEF school 4.11.1915 and flown to England. Farnborough 6.11.1915 (17hrs 30mins) and allotted to 6th Brigade 9.11.1915. 9 RS Mousehold Heath by 19.3.1916 and crashed 25.6.1916 (2Lt EH Collison KIFA). 5008 Maurice Farman Se.11. Ex MF1679 (70-hp Renault). BEF Flying School Le Crotoy dd ex Paris 4.5.1915. AP St Omer in reserve by 30.6.1915 and deleted 18.8.1915 (wrecked). 5016 Caudron G.III. BEF Flying School Le Crotoy dd ex Paris 15.5.1915 and deleted 3.7.1915 (30 hrs). 5032 Caudron G.III. BEF Flying School Le Crotoy dd ex Paris 24.6.1915. 1 AP St Omer in reserve by 30.6.1915 and deleted 12.10.1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlight Posted 15 February , 2007 Share Posted 15 February , 2007 Hi Andy, I'm afraid I can't help with the date he transferred into the RFC. Re the Caudron G3, though most of them were single seat aircraft (type A2) there was a two seater training version (type D2). I agree with Mick that he was most likely up for a joyride (as did my grandfather on occasion - he was a 1st AM in Number 6 squadron). As the early versions of the Caudron employed wing warping rather than ailerons I have read that they were "crude and tricky to fly". Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewb Posted 15 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 15 February , 2007 Thanks everyone for the extra information, especially Micks's details of the aircraft at Le Crotoy. 5016 Caudron G.III does seem a a very likely contender. Is this aircraft known to be a two-seater version? I guess most of the planes at a training establishment would have been? Also is the (30hrs) after the description the machines total flying hours up to that point? Could someone please explain the differentiation betwwen Airman 2nd Class, 1st Class, etc? What rank would one normally have to be to begin pilot training. Thanks again Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Thornicroft Posted 15 February , 2007 Share Posted 15 February , 2007 Andy Lister attended Wycliffe College in Stonehouse, Glos. He enlisted into the 5th Glosters on the outbreak of war, spent seven months training at Chelmsford & then transferred to the RFC at his own request. (This puts his transfer around March/April, 1915). The Wycliffe College records state: "He had made several successful flights alone, & it is uncertain whether the sudden descent of the aeroplane was due to engine trouble or to some other mis-chance". (No mention of the type of aeroplane). Mrs. Asquith, wife of the Prime Minister, sent a telegram to the family: "Terribly distressed at your dear Edward's death. All sympathy from the Prime Minister & myself". Here's a photo of Edward Lister (hopefully......) Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Thornicroft Posted 15 February , 2007 Share Posted 15 February , 2007 Better luck this time..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlight Posted 16 February , 2007 Share Posted 16 February , 2007 Hi, When enlisting in the RFC as an 'other rank' it was normal to be classed as a 2nd Class Air Mechanic unless you had a specific skill (eg. sailmaker, fitter/turner, engineer, instrument maker) when you would go straight in as a 1st Class Air Mechanic. Promotion to corporal, sergeant etc would be on the job according to skills gained. The customary entry level rank for a pilot was 2nd lieutenant though many did come from the rank of sergeant or flight sergeant. However, non-commissioned pilots had a lonely life and were not afforded the priveleges of their officer fellow pilots, such as entry to the officers' mess. On rare occasions, especially in the early years of the RFC when rules for pilots and observers were not as rigid as later on in the Great War, lowly air mechanics and the occasional corporal also managed to gain their pilots brevets (wings). I've even read of an RFC driver who flew as a pilot in 1915 and a colleague of my grandfather began the war in the army, transferred to the RFC as a 2nd Class mechanic and was eventually offered a commission (as 2nd lieutenant) to train as a pilot. To give a more famous example, McCudden transferred into the RFC from the army as a 2nd class mechanic, rose through the ranks to sergeant, trained to fly as a flight sergeant and eventually commanded his own squadron as a commisioned major. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewb Posted 16 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 16 February , 2007 Thanks for the extra information everyone, particularly for the school information and photo Nick - do you have connections with Wycliffe, I live about 5 miles from there. It seems that even though he was an Airman 2nd Class he did actually get to fly solo. I guess the telegram from the PM's wife was probably due to the reputation gained by his family connections. The Lister company had gained a reputation by then and his grandfather had made some influential links. Thanks for the explanation of the ranks Steve, that helps me understand things a lot better. Do the records for the RFC operations at Le Crotoy still exist anywhere. National Archives maybe? Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Thornicroft Posted 16 February , 2007 Share Posted 16 February , 2007 Andy I have no personal connections with Wycliffe College, but I went to school not far from there. The Flying Logs may be at the National Archives, as might Lister's service record - no guarantees, though. There is no doubt the accident would have been reported in the local Dursley newspaper. I am fairly sure the Glos. Records Office holds some archive newspapers (either originals or on microfilm), however, I suspect the censor would have been at work at the time, & specific details were deliberately left out. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewb Posted 20 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2007 Hi Nick I'll check out the local papers to see what they have to say but I imagine the details will have been omitted. Attached is an image showing Lister's name on the war memorial on Dursley church gates. Curiously his rank is stated as being Private although by the time of his death he was obviously in the RFC. I wonder why? Thanks again Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 20 February , 2007 Share Posted 20 February , 2007 Have you contacted the RAF museum to see if they have his casualty card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewb Posted 20 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2007 No I haven't. I'm fairly new to this and hadn't appreciated that RFC records might be there. I'll follow it up, thanks. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 21 February , 2007 Share Posted 21 February , 2007 They have the First World War Casualty Cards, more details from their Department of Research & Information Services http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/collect...ualty_cards.cfm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewb Posted 6 November , 2007 Author Share Posted 6 November , 2007 A bit of an update: As he was a 2AM it seems unlikely that he was undergoing pilot training. More likely, he could have been a mechanic on a joy ride. Even though he was a 2AM, it seems he was undergoing flying training after all. A local newspaper report after his death states that "... he had made such good progress under tuition at the school here that he had already made several successful solo flights and this morning was passing his final test for his Civil Ticket previous to returning to England, when his machine descended too steeply, striking the ground with great force. He never regained consciousness, so was mercifully spared any suffering, and died shortly after his admission to the No.5 Stationary Hospital, Abbeville..." Does anyone know why he would he be doing civil flying training as a 2AM while in the RFC in France during wartime? Thanks for any help. Best Wishes Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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