katerimmer Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 I have asked about this before a while ago, but never got an answer. On my great-uncle's medal index card (of which I now have a lovely colour photocopy, front and back, thanks to the Western Front Association), it says, among other things, "Transfd 8/7/18 Forfeited under RW (Article 1236(a) service restored & star issued authy min 24 35/OSC/460" It seems that at one time he was not going to be given his medals, but then he was given them after all. It seems to me that if I could find out what this Article 1236(a) was, I might have some idea of what was going on. Does anybody know where I could look it up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 The medal rolls might give some more info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katerimmer Posted 16 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 16 January , 2007 The medal rolls might give some more info They might, but I once paid a researcher to have a look and he didn't come up with anything, so it would have to wait until I can get to Kew myself, and that might not be for a long time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 do you mean they couldnt find the rolls or there was no info on them ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katerimmer Posted 16 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 16 January , 2007 do you mean they couldnt find the rolls or there was no info on them ? It's a little bit complicated, because this person had 2 medal index cards and was in 4 different regiments, so I think what happened was the researcher found one entry which had some info but not about this article 1236(a) stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 I have asked about this before a while ago, but never got an answer. On my great-uncle's medal index card (of which I now have a lovely colour photocopy, front and back, thanks to the Western Front Association), it says, among other things, "Transfd 8/7/18 Forfeited under RW (Article 1236(a) service restored & star issued authy min 24 35/OSC/460" It seems that at one time he was not going to be given his medals, but then he was given them after all. It seems to me that if I could find out what this Article 1236(a) was, I might have some idea of what was going on. Does anybody know where I could look it up? Any clues in your family history or service record? Did he have broken service? Did he enlist under two different names? Was he sent to prison? Did he serve in more than one unit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katerimmer Posted 16 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Any clues in your family history or service record? Did he have broken service? Did he enlist under two different names? Was he sent to prison? Did he serve in more than one unit? The names on the 2 medal index cards are more or less the same - R H Bristow on one and Reginald H Bristow on the other. I don't know what a unit is, but he seems to have been in the Labour Corps, East Surrey Regiment, Army Service Corps and Essex Regiment. I don't know if he had broken service, but I wouldn't be surprised. I don't think he went to prison. Really, he is a bit of a mystery and I am hoping I can find out something about him. Thanks for your interest. Got to go now, but back later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonsstar Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 R.W. is Royal Warrant 1914 this is to do with Pay & Pensions. & if he had his medals taken away from him he would have been on a Court Martial at some point. For his 1914 Star it look like 6 ? Field Ambulance ASC. this is the first unit he was with overseas Can you post the other MIC Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katerimmer Posted 16 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 16 January , 2007 R.W. is Royal Warrant 1914 this is to do with Pay & Pensions. & if he had his medals taken away from him he would have been on a Court Martial at some point. For his 1914 Star it look like 6 ? Field Ambulance ASC. this is the first unit he was with overseas Can you post the other MIC Cheers Thanks very much. Somebody did look him up on a list of Court Martials once and didn't find his name. The photocopy of the first medal card is clearer than the download, and it looks like "6th Cav Fd Amb ASC" so I thought it might be "6th Cavalry Field Ambulance ASC", is that possible? This is the other medal card, and thanks to the photocopy of the back of the first one, I now know for sure that it is the same person, because it says, "O I/C Labour Corps forwards application for 1914 Star on behalf of Mr. R.H. Bristow 19.2.20. Applic. for Clasp 6.5.21" (thus proving he is the same Reginald Bristow who was in the Labour Corps) It also gives two addresses, where Reginald Bristow was living at the time of the two medal applications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Thanks very much. Somebody did look him up on a list of Court Martials once and didn't find his name. The photocopy of the first medal card is clearer than the download, and it looks like "6th Cav Fd Amb ASC" so I thought it might be "6th Cavalry Field Ambulance ASC", is that possible? This is the other medal card, and thanks to the photocopy of the back of the first one, I now know for sure that it is the same person, because it says, "O I/C Labour Corps forwards application for 1914 Star on behalf of Mr. R.H. Bristow 19.2.20. Applic. for Clasp 6.5.21" (thus proving he is the same Reginald Bristow who was in the Labour Corps) It also gives two addresses, where Reginald Bristow was living at the time of the two medal applications. I'll bow out now as there are many who know a lot more than I do about transfers between units. ( A unit is simply a short hand reference to any bit of the services, Battery, company, batallion etc) I would just say that the Labour Corps suggests he had been downgraded in fitness. Ill? Wounded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Hello Kate If the first unit that your greant uncle served with is unclear from the MIC then I would suggest that you engage a researcher to look at the BWM and Victory Medal Rolls for the Labour Corps. In spite of the multitude of changes, these two campaign medals should be inscribed with his original unit. It will then be possible to check the Mons Star and Clasp against the roll of his original unit. According to the second card, he was granted an SWB - that role would also supply some valuable information. I can't help you with the deciphering of the Article but with the man's record I can't help speculate that forfeiture could have been based on a suspicion of desertion given the chaotic nature of the record of service. Regards Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katerimmer Posted 16 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Thanks everyone. I suppose some time I will have to pay somebody to research it properly. If only there was somewhere that I could look that "article" up, though! By the way, perhaps I should have mentioned that he was in the Essex Regiment after the end of the war, so that must have been the last one he was in, but I don't know in what order he served in the others. On one BMD certificate after the war (12 Sep 1919) he is "ex army furniture dealer" and then 4th Nov 1919 on another one he is "Private, Essex Regiment stationed at Warley". By 13th Jan 1920 he is "furniture dealer" again! I was trying not to get into all this confusing stuff just now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Kate I am glad that you added that clarification because the East Surrey number on the second card sat oddly with the Essex number on the first MIC. I would still as a precaution have the Medal Roll for the second MIC checked to be absolutely certain. The fact that it appears that you have managed to establish a link between two apparently separate MICs will no doubt cause envy. Can I ask whether the WFA are now offering the provision of copies of the reverse of the MICs as a service? Regards Mel Ps there is such a thing as a Cavalry Field Ambulance 1-5 were with the 1st and 2nd Cavalry Divisions. Where is number 6? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Kate I have answered my own question. The 6th Cavalry Field Ambulance was with the 3rd Cavalry Division. It arrived in F&F during the first week in October which ties in nicely with the date of entry on the MIC: http://www.1914-1918.net/CAVALRY/3cavdiv.htm Regards Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Kate I have just done a trawl of the site and 1236 has come up before on this thread: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...c=16946&hl= It looks as if it is forfeiture based on desertion. I think that it is likely that the Army lost track of the transfer on 8/7/18 and that omission was rectified when the OIC of the Labour Corps records confirmed continuity of service. regards Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katerimmer Posted 16 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 16 January , 2007 The fact that it appears that you have managed to establish a link between two apparently separate MICs will no doubt cause envy. Really?! I didn't realise! Can I ask whether the WFA are now offering the provision of copies of the reverse of the MICs as a service? Yes, they are. I saw it in "Your Family Tree" magazine back in November and ordered a copy of this particular card because of the fact that it said "[OVER." in the bottom right-hand corner, which suggested there was something on the back. I only received the photocopy today, so you may have to wait quite a long time if you order one. Apparently they are planning to make downloads available, but at the moment you have to write to them enclosing a £5 donation to the Western Front Association. The address is WFA, P.O. Box 1918, Stockport, SK4 4WN. Thanks very much indeed for all your help, Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 Kate Many thanks for that information on the WFA. Could you post a separate thread in the 'Other Forum' about the availability of the service? I am sure that a good number of forum members are unaware of the same. On a separate point and having re-read the thread, I am not convinced that the two MICs are for the same man. The East Surrey service number and the grant of an SWB do not sit comfortably with the post armistice service of your great uncle. My reading of his service is that he was a pre-war ASC regular attached to the 6th Cavalry Field Ambulance of the 3rd Cavalry Division at the outbreak of war. At some point, he was transferred to an Essex Battalion and served as part of the transport section of the same. An Essex Regiment expert could provide a fairly accurate guess as to the date of transfer based on the number - possibly mid to late 1915?. He served with this Battalion until either wounded or medically downgraded and was transferred to the Labour Corps in August 1918 and was still serving with the same at the Armistice. Post armistice, he was transferred back to the Essex Regiment ( with a different number) and was entually discharged as a regular to Class C in late 1919/early 1920. The reason for the 1236 forfeiture of the Mons Star was because of the suspicion of desertion upon transfer to the Labour Corps in August 1918. As I suggested in the previous post, the only way to definitively establish or disprove the link between the second and first MIC is to check the Medal Rolls of the Labour Corps. I know that it might sound a little far fetched but confusion caused by identical names is not unusual. My grandfather George Henry Waites served with the Royal Berks and his MIC has G H Waites as the name. There is also a MIC for a George H Waites that served with the Warwicks - both are completely unrelated. Your journey has just began! regards Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katerimmer Posted 17 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 17 January , 2007 [quote name='MelPack' date='Jan 17 2007, 11:30 AM' post='600301 Many thanks for that information on the WFA. Could you post a separate thread in the 'Other Forum' about the availability of the service? I am sure that a good number of forum members are unaware of the same. Mel, thanks very much for all the suggestions and information. I will have to dig out the stuff the researcher sent me to check exactly what he said. But could you please tell me what you mean by the "Other Forum" so I can post the thread? Sorry for being such a newbie! Kate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 Hello Kate The 'Other Forum' is the section of the Forum below that of 'Women in the War'. I would certainly be interested to know the result when you have the Medal Rolls for the BM and Victory Medals on the second card checked. regards Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katerimmer Posted 17 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 17 January , 2007 Hello Kate The 'Other Forum' is the section of the Forum below that of 'Women in the War'. I would certainly be interested to know the result when you have the Medal Rolls for the BM and Victory Medals on the second card checked. regards Mel Okay, Mel, I have dug out the lookups that the researcher did for me a couple of years ago and it turns out that that is exactly what he looked up. It probably won't convince you that the two medal cards are for the same person, but I am sure they are anyway. The Medal Roll for the Victory and British War Medals gives his name as Reginald Hugh Bristow, number 373089 in the Labour Corps, and gives his previous number as 11976 E.Surr.R, and the Roll for the "War Badge" (presumably the SWB) lists him as 373089 Bristow, Reginald H. discharged from the Labour Corps, enlisted 20.8.08 and discharged 22.3.19 (sick as per para 392 xvia of K.R.) My Reginald Hugh Bristow is the only one on FreeBMD (birth registered first quarter of 1891). The Essex Regiment MIC is definitely his because it has his addresses on the back, and as I said, it also mentions the Labour Corps on the back. Notice that the Essex Regiment MIC only mentions the 14 Star while the E. Surrey one mentions the Victory and War medals (plus the SWB). Still, everything about the Bristows is confusing and nothing straightforward! Thanks for all your help. Kate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 Hello Kate This will turn into a saga The information that you have provided from the SWB role confirms that they are two separate men. The East Surrey man enlisted 20/8/08 ie he was a pre-war regular and the service number reflects that for this particular regiment. Your great uncle could not, therefore, have served under that number in the East Surrey. Furthermore, had it been your Reginald then the Victory and BM would have been recorded in the Labour Corps Roll for the ASC and not the East Surrey. I have no doubt that your Reginald did transfer to the Labour Corps on 17/8/18 - hence the reference from the Labour Corps on the back of the first card. Your great uncle's Victory and BM will be recorded in the Labour Corps Roll and will refer to the ASC - the only problem is that you do not have the Roll reference. The interesting challege is identifying the approximate date of transfer from the 6th Cav Field Amb to the Essex Battalion and the number of the Battalion because it looks very much like that he could have spent three years or more with a frontline infantry unit. Regards Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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