Household Cavalry

[Muerrisch]

I think your farrier corporal major might well have 'ammer an' tongs additionally, so that a vulgar tradesman could be distinguished from HE WHO TALKS TO GOD.

[Graham Stewart]

Corporal

As taken from Davis's book and noted as worn c.1936 worn on jackets & greatcoats and still worn in 1944, but not on the greatcoat. Also believed to be worn by Royal Gloucestershire Hussars.

Graham.

[Graham Stewart]

Lance Corporal.

This one is currently in dispute, as Dawnay has it as incorrect. Yet Davis has this worn c.1936 on both jackets and greatcoats, but by 1941, it becomes a small crown over a two bar chevron, but not worn on the greatcoat. Believe today he's now referred to as "L/Cpl of Horse"

Thanks to Grumpy and apologies if I've ballsed this up, but I find the passage of time and the chopping and changing of rank and appointment can cause confusion. Even Dawnay has me baffled when c.1922 he has both L/Cpls and Cpls wearing a two bar chevron, which to me seems to be odd considering L/Cpl was only an appointment.

Grumpy caught your last post and would sound logical, but neither Dawnay or Davis mention the "Hammer & Tongs", or have I missed it?

Graham.

[Muerrisch]

Graham: consider this:

the Household Cavalry never knowingly accept inferiority to Foot Guards. It is an established fact that, for ever and a day, LCpls of Foot Guards wore two chevrons [even when only an appointment, not a rank] How logical that HC should have the same, and add the 'regimental badge', the crown.

I think Dawnay outranks Davis here. The latter is very Regulations-orientated, whereas Dawnay quotes the regs. and then says 'mythical' and says he has photographic evidence.

Sorry to say, LCpl is NOT known as LCpl o H ...... this latter is one up, paid as a full Cpl and badged three chevrons as a CoH except worsted crown for the junior, gilding metal for the senior.

And then there is the vexed matter of Band NCOs. One book is specifically re. the HC Bands 'Music in State Clothing', and was written by an ex-trumpeter/ drummer. There is an appendix dealing with ranks and badges of the band. The book was published 1995. The ONLY BAND badge other than the usual ranks as I have described was the crossed trumpets of the Trumpet Major! I can only think that, even if the band 'harp, wreath and crown' was used [Dawnay thought so when he wrote his work] it has fallen out of use.

Perhaps Squirrel ought to persist, and put us all out of our misery. I would have thought the HC had a standard handout, there must be twerps like us asking damnfool questions all the time.

[squirrel]

Chased up the enquiry to HC Museum - it is closed for the forseeable future!

Will write a detailed letter to the RHQ at Whitehall and request the info that way.

Will keep you advised accordingly - be interesting to know what they wore on the WW1 Service Dress as well.

[Graham Stewart]

Grumpy,

Please don't go down the "who outranks who", path as I'm always reminded of many years ago of an incident at work. We were all ex-service personnel and some of the lads wanted to know more about researching relatives and being into it, and I was trying to help, then the subject turned to numbering which I attempted to try and explain. An ex-Staff Sgt was listening on the edges and decided to put me right about how Army numbers were eight digit and followed you throughout your career. I tried to explain this wasn't so for the Great War and that before the eight digits you also had the regimental block system. This must have got right up his nose as he turned to me and said "what the f**k do you know, you were only ever in the Navy & T.A.".

I'm still working in an ex-service enviroment with a lot of ex-SNCO's and so don't say much about my hobby unless some asks. Prefer to talk about it with like minded people here.

Will get back to you a.s.a.p. regarding your other e.mail query. Do hope someone can get a reply out of the HC though.

Graham.

Graham

[Muerrisch]

Graham: don't misunderstand me!

I merely meant on historical gravitas ..... Dawnay was published extensively on rank badges [all periods, all ranks] by the Journal of the Army Historical Society, and his work was subjected to peer review and has never been challenged.

Davis, whilst filling some useful gaps and providing some incomparable illustrations, is not beyond criticism, and my copy of his WW II book has a fair number of pencil amendments.

And no doubt copies of my five books and dozens of articles have all attracted similar grafiti.

So, I maintain that Dawnay is the Expert Witness, Davis has his uses, and I know very little but am in learning mode.

And I note that Squirrel has single-handedly closed Horse Guards!

[squirrel]

The only things I know for certain, from the horse's mouth so to speak, is that in the late 1970's/early 80's a Corpral of Horse wore three chevrons with a crown above. I worked with a chap who was in the Lifeguards and he produced a photo of himself in full dress mounted uniform, taken just prior to leaving Knightsbridge (Hyde Park Cavalry Barracks) for escort duty at the State Opening of Parliament.

Also, at about the same time, I had to visit Knightsbridge on business and was shown round by a Corporal of Horse wearing three chevrons with a crown above on his "woolie pullie".

They both said that the rank was equivalent to a Sergeant in the "Tab" Guards or other footsloggers".

[George Armstrong Custer]

Chased up the enquiry to HC Museum - it is closed for the forseeable future!

Will write a detailed letter to the RHQ at Whitehall and request the info that way.

Will keep you advised accordingly - be interesting to know what they wore on the WW1 Service Dress as well.

An explanation for this closure appears at the end of the recently published regimental history, Horse Guards, by Barney White-Spunner:

THE HOUSEHOLD CAVALRY MUSEUM

The new museum, scheduled to open in June 2007, will give visitors a unique view of the proud history of the Household Cavalry, its modern day operational role as well as a privileged 'behind the scenes' insight into their famous ceremonial duties.

Located within the historic building and working stable at Horse Guards, London, the museum will chart the Household Cavalry's history from the time of Charles II, through Waterloo, to its modern deployment in Iraq. The story is told with the help of fascinating objects from its extensive Regimental collection and archives and will be brought to life through captivating personal stories and accounts.

The existing Regimental Museum at Combermere Barracks, Windsor, is also scheduled to re-open in september 2007, as a collection and education facility that will support the London operation.

For more information and opening times see the Household Cavalry Museum website at My Webpage

Nice to see one regiment at least, (albeit an immensely privileged one), putting such effort into preserving and making accessible its heritage.

Ciao,

GAC

[squirrel]

Museum used to be at Knightsbridge and I have been to see it in the past. Mostly a collection of uniforms and other items. Allegedly, they have the full dress jackets of all the Silver Stick and Gold Stick in Waiting incumbents since the middle of the 19th century.

FM Lord Montgomery's was on display at the time I went.

Nothing on their website about a move to Whitehall; just says the Museum is closed.

[squirrel]

Just an update on progress with my enquiry to RHQ Household Cavalry Whitehall regarding rank badges/insignia worn in WW1 etc.

My letter posted 21st January.

Letter confirming receipt received from RHQ Whitehall 17th March advising that it had been passed on to the Museum Curator at Combermere Barracks Windsor.

I will let you know when any further information is received.