8th Bn Australian A.I.F.

[Terry Carter]

Pte Harry Betts (1219) who is commemorated on my local war memorial was killed in action on 8 May, 1915, at Gallipoli serving with the 8th Australian Inf Bn, 2nd AIF Division.

Can anyone tell me what the battalion was doing on that day please. Was he involved in an attack ?

Would any of our Australian members have a picture of him?

Cheers

Terry

[Guest gumbirsingpun]

hi terry

as far as i can remember, the 2nd australian division took part in the second battle o krtiha the assault wir to include an advance nae only up the spurs on the right and left rank, but also up the central spur known as kritha spur,and their loeses wir rather heavy,they lost something like 1000 men

regards

tuna

[Wayne Saillard]

Hello Terry !

Have you consulted his Service Records ? If not, please pm me via the Forum and I will send them over to you.

Regards

Wayne

[Terry Carter]

Thanks Tuna.

Wayne ..... yes I have seen his service records on the Australian War Memorial site.

Thaks for the offer

Terry

[Auimfo]

Private Harry Betts was originally given the service number 1319 but it appears it was later changed to 1265 (I'm not sure why). There was a mention in his service record of the number 1219 but this only appeared once and I think was simply a typo.

I've had a look at the Roll of Honour entry on the AWM site and it confirms that Betts was killed during the 2nd Battle of Krithia. His body does not seem to have been recovered and he is remembered on the Helles Memorial.

Tim L.

[michaeldr]

Terry

As indicated by Tuna they were at 2nd Krithia

see the Australian OH here http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/histories/3/chapters/01.pdf

page 21 and onwards

regards

Michael

[montbrehain]

heres a photo from my collection , but I dont believe he,s your man .

[DaveMurphy]

Terry,

Andrew P on this forum may have what you are after in this post

He should be able to give you the battalion diary for the period.

Dave

[Crunchy]

Pte Harry Betts (1219) who is commemorated on my local war memorial was killed in action on 8 May, 1915, at Gallipoli serving with the 8th Australian Inf Bn, 2nd AIF Division.

Can anyone tell me what the battalion was doing on that day please. Was he involved in an attack ?

Terry,

The 8th Battalion was part of the 2nd Infantry Brigade, 1st Australian Division and came from Victoria. The brigade was in the second echelon at the Landing at Anzac and was transferred from Anzac to Helles on 6th May, landing at the River Clyde pier.

The brigade was preparing its evening meal on 8th May when at 5pm its received orders to participate in an attack at 5:30pm as part of the 2nd Battle of Krithia. The attack was led by the 6th and 7th Battalions with the 5th and 8th moving behind them. They advanced between the Krithia Nullah and the Sedd-el-Bahr - Krithia Road and the New Zealand Brigade advanced to their left between the Krithia Nullah and Gully Ravine. The brigade advanced 1000 yards across open ground under heavy rifle and machine gun fire before being brought to a halt some 400 yards short of the Turkish defences. They dug in on this line.

The 8th Battaion lost 25 killed, 133 wounded and 59 missing. Total 2nd Brigade losses were 182 killed, 539 wounded and 335 missing. The New Zealand Brigade lost 120 killed, 517 wounded and 134 missing. According to Bean the missing in both brigades were either killed or wounded.

Regards

Chris

.

[frev]

Hi Terry,

The following is from a letter written by Cpl Alfred Bray who was also in C Company, 8th Bn:

"Just before 5pm we got the order to charge, and the whole brigade moved forward. The country was a bare slope up towards the village of Krithia; no cover of any kind; the bullets were like hail, and I expected every moment to feel one. We rushed over the Indian trenches, then over the English Tommies, and then up the slope towards Achi Baba for about a 1000 yards. Our losses were fearful; men fell at every step, but nobody thought of stopping until we were absolutely exhausted, when we lay down and started to dig ourselves in; all this time under fearful fire from machine guns, rifles and shrapnel. We worked all night, for every man knew that his chance of life depended on it. ......................"

From Percy Lay's diary:

"The cries of the wounded and dying was something awful that night and hundreds of men died from exposure alone."

He also recorded (9th May) that "a burial party had buried 57 men in one grave druing the previous night 'and next morning you could not see where we had taken them from'."

[source: "Cobbers in Khaki" 8th Bn history]

Cheers, Frev

[Jeff Pickerd]

Terry,

Having now accessed Pte Harry Betts, No. 1319, service record on the National Archives of Australia, thought I should give you a bit more back ground to details contained there in.

He enlisted at Melbourne, signing the Atestation form on 7/10 /1914, entered Broadmeadows Camp, Melbourne, Victoria, on the 8th, going into the Training Depot. Here all new recruits under went their basis training.

From a random search of five other men from the 8th Battalion's, 2nd Reinforcements, all were at the Training Depot until the 5/1/1915 and taken on strength of the 2nd Reinf's on this date.

2nd Lt R. Jennings, C.O. 2nd Reinf's, signed men on between the 25th and 27th January 1915. This would no doubt be to formalize the Reinforcements Nominal Roll in preparation for the 2nd Reinf's Embarkation Roll being drawn up.

The 2nd Reinf's embarked from Port Melbourne aboard the HMAT A 46. "Clan McGillivray", 2/2/1915.

I have not been able to establish the date of arrival in Egypt, but the vessel would have docked at Port Alexandria, and from there they would have entrained to Cairo.

The original make up of the 8th Infantry Battalion was of, Headquarters and eight rifle companies, "A" to "H", but in January 1915 this was changed to a four company structure, each of 227 men.

"A" Company, O.C. Lt Col Field, 2 I.C. Capt Cowper, CSM Ailwood, CQMS Fay (old "A" and "E" Companies).

"B" Company, O.C. Capt Sergeant, 2 I.C. Capt Hodgson, CSM Kirsch, CQMS Johnson (old "D" & "G").

"C" Company, O.C. Capt Coulter, 2 I.C. Capt Dale, CSM Taylor, CQMS Pollock (old "B" & "H").

"D" Company, O.C. Capt Trickey, 2 I.C. Capt Eberling, CSM Leggo, CQMS Peter (old "C" & "F").

It would have been some time after this, an unkown date, prior to the Battalions embarkation for Gallipoli that he is taken on strength of the "C" Company, 8th Battalion. Here he issued a new number, 1265. All of the five other's that I checked, also receive new numbers.

What is not clearly outlined in his service record is the fact that he embarked with the 8th Bn aboard the HMAT A 46 "Clan McGillivray", 5/4/1915, as did the other five from the 2nd Reinf's. Sailing from Alexandria at 5 p.m. 8th April. Arrived at Lemnos Island, anchoring in Mudros harbour on the 11th. Here they were confined to the ship for the next twenty days, apart from several days of practice of climbing down the rope ladders over the side of the vessel into life boats and rowing to the shore.

The "Clan McGillivray" sailed with the invasion fleet at 5.30 p.m. April 24th.

Around 5 a.m. 25th April, the 8th Bn were taken by destroyer towards Anzac Cove, transferred to several large barges and towed ashore. By 9 a.m. the rear companies of the 8th Bn had landed, and by 10 a.m. they had dug in along Bolton's Ridge.

As Crunchy has outlined the 2nd Battle of Krithia, there is no need to repeat the action. The only thing I can add is the little I have found with regard to "C" Companies role in the battle.

After 6.15 p.m. on the 8th May "C" Company was sent to reinforce the 6th Battalion on the right of the Sedd el Bahr road. "A", "B" & "C" Companies formed the firing line and supports for the 6th, "D" Company being the reserve.

C.E.W. Bean's figures for the 8th Battalion, of 26 killed, 133 wounded and 59 missing were not quite accurate. 38 men of the 8th were killed in action during the Second Battle of Krithia, with Harry Betts being one.

Hope this has added a little more for you,

Jeff

[Terry Carter]

I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this topic. I cannot believe it. Just last week he was a name on a memorial, and now I have this much information.

I see in his service papers a small brown paper parcel containing a few personal possesions were sent to his mother back in Castle Bromwich, UK.

Where did these come from if his body was never found or identified?

A damaged watch, a chain, a pencil and a letter.

Thanks again

Terry

[Guest gumbirsingpun]

probably frae his id disc or his military record

regards

tuna

[Crunchy]

I see in his service papers a small brown paper parcel containing a few personal possesions were sent to his mother back in Castle Bromwich, UK.

Where did these come from if his body was never found or identified?

A damaged watch, a chain, a pencil and a letter.

Terry,

Two possibilities: either they were recovered from his pack or recovered from his body by his mates. He was probably buried after the action but after the war either his battlefield grave was not found or his remains could not be identified in which case his IWGC grave would have been classified as unknown and his name entered on the Helles memorial.

Similar situation occured with one of our relatives - body not recovered but a small package of personal effects sent back to his family in Australia.

Regards

Chris

[Terry Carter]

Thanks Chris

I seem to recall a scene in the movie Gallipoli starring Mel Gibson. Before going over the top 'Diggers' writing last letters and leaving valuables behind in the trench in case they never returned.

Possibly Harry Betts may have done the same.

Terry

[Crunchy]

I seem to recall a scene in the movie Gallipoli starring Mel Gibson. Before going over the top 'Diggers' writing last letters and leaving valuables behind in the trench in case they never returned.

Possibly Harry Betts may have done the same.

Hi Terry,

I don't think so in Harry's case. They were preparing their meal in the rear at the time the order for the attack came through. According to Bean, these orders arrived in the Battalions between 1710 and 1720. I think it was more a matter of quickly moving up to the front and then immediately undertaking the advance.

A neighbour of ours took part in the assault (5th Bn, which was alongside the 8th) and from what he said in the 60's the order came unexpectedly, they quickly packed up, moved up in cloumn, shook out in line and advanced towards the front into what he said was quite heavy fire, crossed a trench with Brits in it (Tommies Trench) and pushed on with men falling around them the whole time. They eventually went to ground with about 8 men and when his LT started calling back for the rest of the platoon to come up, he replied "This is the Platoon". As a result of the casualties he was promoted SGT the next day (he had been a private at the Landing two weeks beforehand)

The Gallipoli scene was probably overdone for audience effect. Nonetheless, there are accounts of men wishing their mates goodbye. In their case they had just witnessed two waves shot down in the space a 10-15 yards and an attempt by the CO to stop the slaughter. When the word came through that they were to continue the attack many of them knew they wouldn't have a chance. Our relation's effects were gathered up from his kit that had been left behind in the Regimental area prior to moving up to the attack.

Regards

Chris

[Terry Carter]

Thanks Chris

Much appreciate the time you put in to answer my question.

Regards

Terry