More Pronounciations

[Aurel Sercu]

Sorry, I can't help it, but this is one of the most amusing threads I have ever seen. Please, do not think that I would like to joke about the enjoyable British way to massacre the pronunciation of French and Flemish names. It's just that trying to make clear what the exact pronunciation is, is a hopeless task, a losing battle...

- We can't use phonetical writing (not being able to type the correct signs)...

- Even if we could, are the Forum members able to read it ?

- And if we try to reflect the pronunciation by means of normal spelling, the confusion might even increase !

One might compare the pronunciation of a specific French name with the pronunciation of some English words, but the problem is that very often (even most of the time) these French sounds do not exist in English. E.g. Saint Quentin ... I cannot find of 3 simple English words that have the same vowel sounds as in Saint, Quen- and -tin. (The problem also being that the vowels have a nasal quality.)

Of course, one could refer to well-known French words, and say :

- Saint and -tin as in French "vin" (English wine)

- Quen- as the last syllable in French "restaurant" (and with k- of course, not kw- !)

But then who can assure us if the French pronunciation of these "simple" French words by an Englishman is correct ?

I think we have to learn to live with this, and see the massacre of French and Dutch (Flemish) pronunciation as one of the charms of the Britons.

Another amusing aspect : I (and other people in the Ypres area) have since long given up to teach British visitors the correct pronunciation of "Hooge" (Hooge Crater Museum, Hooge Crater Cemetery. (The correct Dutch pronunciation is a long monophthong -oo- (as in ... French Loos ! ), and a -g- as in... well, I can't explain, since the sound of this consonant does not exist in English, and not in French either !)

So what do I (we) do ? When speaking to British visitors, we simply adopt the 'ridiculous' English pronunciation, and pronounce it like English "huge" (but without the -j-).

I'll be following the development of this thread with interest. And ... amusement. Smiling.

But I have to say : Jan is doing is fine job.

Aurel

I really would like to help, but

[burlington]

Is Serre pronounced Seer or Sair? or what.

I have always pronounced it in my own mind as Serray- until I was corrected!

Are there any takers for my previous posting please re. Serre?

[Tom Morgan]

If you can do that French-style guttural "r" sound at the end, and pronounce it so it rhymes with "air" you'll be about right.

Mind you, local people often tend to refer to it as "Serre-Les-Puisieux" (Sair' -lay-PWIZ-Yuh.)

Local pronunciations can be an added difficulty. It's a bit like trying to explain that Gloucester is pronounced "Gloster". Years ago I had some confusion with someone telling me he'd met me some time before, in "Beaumel" - a place I'd never been to. I bluffed for a while until I realised that "Beaumel" is Beaumont-Hamel!

Tom

[John_Hartley]

and a -g- as in... well, I can't explain, since the sound of this consonant does not exist in English, and not in French either !)

Aurel

Many years ago, a Dutch friend (sadly deceased) tried to teach me this - as in Gouda cheese. It really just sounds like I'm trying to get rid of plegm in my throat (but my pal reckoned it was a reasonable attempt). No offence intended towards your wonderful language and/or the Flemish dialect.

John

[Aurel Sercu]

Many years ago, a Dutch friend (sadly deceased) tried to teach me this - as in Gouda cheese. It really just sounds like I'm trying to get rid of plegm in my throat. (...)

John,

As the risk of getting off topic ... (It should have been in Utterly Off-Topic instead of Western Front ...) But as in a former life I was a language teacher ...

Here in Flanders our standard language is Dutch. The same as in the Netherlands. However there are some differences. Also in pronunciation. A very typical difference is that (most of) the Dutch have a very distinct way of pronouncing the sound -g-. "Getting rid of phlegm" ? That sounds like a good description !

Actually, I remember that one of your British authors once said : "Dutch ? That's not a language ! It's a throat disease !" (I wish I remembered his name. Could it have been G.B. Shaw ?)

We here in Flanders have a much softer -g-. And actually, here in this province (West-Flanders, including the Ypres area) we have no -g- at all ! We pronounce the -g- as -h-, and most people, especially the ones that are not used to speaking the standard language, only their dialect, cannot even produce it the way it should be done. So "Hooge" sounds as "Hoohe".

And as Tom referred to Gloucester / 'Gloster' ... Years ago I was in London with a party, near Piccadilly Circus, and one of us asked a Londoner to tell the way to Lei-ces-ter Square. "Lei-ces-ter Square you said ? There is no such place in London." It took us 3 passers-by to hear : "Lei-ces-ter Square ? You no doubt mean Lester Square !!"

One more thing : if ever you are back in Ypres, having an hour or so to spare, ask 100 (or 1000) natives crossing the Market Place to read "Worcestershire sauce". Your Ypres stay will have an enjoyable last chapter.

Aurel

[spike10764]

Bapaume: Bap-ohm

Authuille: Oht-wheel

Jan

Thanks Jan-or should that be mercy buckets

[John_Hartley]

if ever you are back in Ypres, having an hour or so to spare, ask 100 (or 1000) natives crossing the Market Place to read "Worcestershire sauce". Your Ypres stay will have an enjoyable last chapter.

Dear Pals

Eagerly awaited - the first photo of a Pal clutching a bottle of Lea & Perrins in the Grote Markt. Pink trousers - optional extra.

John

(PS: Aurel - congratulations on getting the name right . Ask 100 Brits and 95 will tell you it's "worcester sauce". This used to be a regular one in a pub quiz.)