Reversing Rifle Bullets to Increase Penetration?

[auchonvillerssomme]

During my research into the Black and Tans and accusations made against them I cam across this article.

Mick

I'm guessing pistol rather than rifle.

Mick

[59165]

Hi

the Defensive and offensive are about the same size. You can see the two together in this pic taken in Kinshasa.

Chris

Hi Chris.

I just remembered why I thought defensives were the smaller ones.I had a bog standard WW1 stick Grenade & later found another but quite a bit bigger.It was explained to me that the smaller ones were to cause less risk to the thrower & his colleagues in their own trench if attacked.

Dave.

[59165]

Just found a blinder of a photo!

This belt (Vickers) was dug up in it's box from the drainage works they did near Monchy about 4 years ago.I used it to get the bullets (as stated earlier) but,check out the red X.

I hadn't thought about this at the time,just too happy to get some clean,original rounds to work with but,surely this would cause a major stoppage????

As we've chatted about,they aren't well seated & stick out a good few mm's more than the powder reversed rounds (or the German ones) that we've seen & I remember that they all had cordite.

There are 4 visible,dunno if there were others,about 50 rounds in from the (where it was) lead in.

Glad I found this but,am truly baffled Just do not see the point (oh dear)

Dave.

[centurion]

You're right it does seem without purpose. If they are meant to be armour piercing you have to fire the rest of the belt at the target before they get fired - weird

[centurion]

I've been trying to summarise the various reports of reversed rounds and put them in date order to see if these is some sort of logic. I've dropped some obviously fabricated ones (for instance there is an NYT report that appears to have been based on Dr Tuffier's report except that he becomes Dr Guffier and has lots of bloodcurdling embellishments). I've kept Swintons in as, although he was the army's official war correspondent and subject to censorship he does not appear to have been prone to absolute porkies. More to come I suspect

September 12 1914

Two cartridges with bullets reversed in a clip found on a wounded German soldier at Bussy le Chateau

November 20 1914

Dr Tuffier Gives a report on the German use of reversed bullets to the French Academy of Medicine. Presents captured clip of cartridges with reversed bullets. Quotes German prisoners reports on how reversal is done

February 2 1915

Lt Col E D Swinton reports that at La Bassee “ Amongst the spoils of war captured was a large amount of dum-dum ammunition and many cartridges in which the bullets had been reversed”

February 1915 (or earlier)

Major Arthur Anderson Palmer M.D describes reversed rounds and states “I am not repeating a rumour when I make this statement. I have seen these cartridges with the inverted bullets in the belts of German prisoners captured in the

trenches. Other surgeons have seen them also.” He suggests that there are a number of British and French accounts of this and that their use is quite common.

May 7 1915

German cartridge with reversed bullet presented as evidence to the Royal Society of Medicine

May 16 ? 1915

Letter from Alan Menzies Hiller to his parents describes finding “ammunition with bullets reversed” in German Trenches

May 241915

War diary of Lieutenant-Colonel D. W. MacPherson reports captured clip of German cartridges with reversed bullets handed to him at dressing station (presumably from a captured but wounded German soldier)

May 24 1915

A member of the 3rd Field Ambulance reports finding reversed Turkish rounds at Gallipoli

May 27 1915

Private diary of Captain G. M. Davis reports “discovery in the captured trenches of clips in which all the bullets had been reversed in their cases”

August 2 1915

History of the 18th Reserve Jaeger Battalion describes use of reversed bullets on British sandbags

Sep 11 1915

Circular from 44 Infantry Brigade HQ re tampered bullets. Mentions reversed bullets and orders summary execution of prisoners found in possession

July 1916

Captain A J Dawson reports in a letter home “We found many clips of German cartridges with the bullets reversed”

August 1916

A sergeant wounded at Guillemont whose account was later recorded by Captain A J Dawson produces a clip of reversed bullets with the comment “I've found lots of German clips full of cartridges with the bullets reversed like this”

[bob lembke]

I just finished reading a quite interesting book, recommended by other Pals: The Gallipoli Diary of Sergeant Lawrence of the Australian Engineers - 1st A.I.F. 1915 , (Cyril Lawrence, edited by Sir Ronald East) , 1981, Melbourne University, 167 pages. Lawrence was quite sharp (ended up a Brigadier in WW II), and the book seems quite believable.

Page 29 - Lawrence says that the Australians are doing "a little sniping or firing at sandbags. For the latter they usually reverse the bullet or cut the end off and make a dum-dum. These cut the bags to blazes. Dum-dums are not allowed; but they are only for sandbags (note: Italics the author's or editor's), although the men would probably not change the cartridge if a head appeared."

I would think that a reversed bullet would do much more damage to a sandbag; but think that a dum-dum would not do too much more damage to a sandbag than an unaltered round.

This is a rather believable report, as the report comes from the side that reportedly were using reversed and dum-dum rounds, and was only published 66 years after the event, not a war-time accusation of the other side.

Bob Lembke

[MikB]

For the latter they usually reverse the bullet or cut the end off and make a dum-dum.

Referring to earlier comments about the position of the cordite sticks and wad, and the seating depth needed to support a reversed bullet's bearing surface in the case neck, I'd really like to know how the heck they did that in 303. Someone would've had to make a little jig - you wouldn't want to be tapping it home with a bayonet hilt against a stone...

Regards,

MikB

[TonyE]

Earlier in this thread we discussed cutting the nose off military jacketed bullets to create home made Dum Dums, and the problems that could be encountered because this creates a bullet like a tube in which the lead core is exposed at both the bottom (as normal) and also now at the tip.

After much searching I found what I was looking for at home. This is the barrel of my MP43 after a good "friend" fired some rounds he had loaded with cut military bullets. The bullet shed its jacket about two inches from the muzzle and the next bullet bulged the barrel on its way through.

Fortunately the MP43 used cut down Mauser K98 barrels so it was a relatively simply job to replace the barrel and fit a new muzzle adaptor and foresight.

I decided to mill a section from the damaged part of the barrel to show people what can happen!

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

Could that be one reason that a reversed bullet would be used? It would not be a lead filled tube as it would still be closed at one end (albeit a different end).

Incidentally one of the Canadian accounts of reversed bullet makes the point that it would be very difficult for this to be done on a British round by the man at the front as the cartridge was double crimped and the bullet sealed in with varnish. Apparently the German round was crimped once and not sealed with varnish. I have no way of knowing if this was so but it sounds plausible

[ian turner]

Raising this topic once more -

Interesting German postcard (from flickr) pertaining to show French dum-dums. One round looks possibly like a reversed bullet, but could be a hollow tipped round-nosed bullet?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29007475@N08/...157614671209211

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29007475@N08/...in/photostream/

[TonyE]

This is a misunderstanding by the Germans, either deliberately or not, of what these bullets actually are.

I am not sure what the objection is to Nos. 1 and 2 as I cannot see if the tips have been cut. Even if they have, they are Balle D bullets which are solid bronze so cutting the tips would have little utility.

No.3 is a Balle Fraisee, which was a reduced charge training round for use in automatic weapons and No.4 is a Model 1906 reduced charge round with the hollow nosed Balle M bullet. Neither of the latter two were intended for combat use and were probably captured by the Germans when they overan a French training area. That is not to say that some enterprising Poilu did not think he would try them out at the front of course.

Regards

TonyE

[ian turner]

TonyE,

Many thanks for your prompt input - appreciated.

Ian

[hooge1]

Quite an interesting experiment went on with a reversed bullet on the Trench Detectives History channel (tues night)

It seems it even stunned the experts!!

[JimSmithson]

Quite an interesting experiment went on with a reversed bullet on the Trench Detectives History channel (tues night)

It seems it even stunned the experts!!

I saw this and was impressed but less so after reading post 141. Not sure why it should have amazed the experts when the Royal Armouries had already found it to be true that reversed rounds penetrate at short distances.

Jim

[hooge1]

I saw this and was impressed but less so after reading post 141. Not sure why it should have amazed the experts when the Royal Armouries had already found it to be true that reversed rounds penetrate at short distances.

I think they were amazed because the assumption is always that the less pointed the bullet is the more air resistance there is therefore less velocity and more tumble, however for the man in the trench what's the average range your going to be firing at?

Against soldiers behind steel loopholes at trench distance it must have been quite an effective method and although less accurate at longer distances a tumbling bullet hitting the body must have caused quite horrendous wounds wherever it struck.

I would have liked to have seen the experiment done over longer distances than what was shown and at angles which would have improved the loophole impenetrability. but I think ultimately unlike the experts the front line soldier was less bothered about ballistics and more bothered about if it did the job. It would make you think twice about waiting for a shot behind a steel loophole.

[truthergw]

................It would make you think twice about waiting for a shot behind a steel loophole.

If there were more than say 3 or 4 steel loopholes in a trench sector, waiting for a shot behind one would be no more dangerous than being in the trench. What are the other side going to do? Keep up a constant bombardment with reversed bullets on each loophole? I am yet to be convinced they were used at all, far less that they were a common object. If they had worked, we would have used them as well, just as each side was happy to learn from the opposition all through the war.

[MikB]

If they had worked, we would have used them as well, just as each side was happy to learn from the opposition all through the war.

It was too difficult to do in 303 without special tools. You couldn't get the reversed bullet back in the case without mangling it, the cordite sticks, or both. German 7,92x57s were loaded with powder propellant.

[truthergw]

If reversing the bullet had been an effective method of producing an armour piercing round, both sides would have produced them and issued them in quantity. Especially the Germans as an answer to tanks.

[hooge1]

If there were more than say 3 or 4 steel loopholes in a trench sector, waiting for a shot behind one would be no more dangerous than being in the trench. What are the other side going to do? Keep up a constant bombardment with reversed bullets on each loophole? I am yet to be convinced they were used at all, far less that they were a common object. If they had worked, we would have used them as well, just as each side was happy to learn from the opposition all through the war.

I don't believe they were a common object but there was a need for a round that would penetrate armour and no doubt reversed bullets was part of that early expermentation, as was using wire cutters to crimp the end of the bullet.

Loopholes without doubt would have come under a lot of fire if spotted that's why they were positioned oblique to the front to hinder observation and of course well cammed up. The fact that they also preferred to sight them in the support trenches 300m or more away from the German front line could be down to observation also but one could also argue because reversed bullets and other experimental ammunition lacked the power and accuracy at that range.

I certainly would prefer my head below the parapet as oppose to a spotted loophole any day

[rumjar]

hi all,

found this a few years back at flers with a sniper plate and two bayonets.

joe.

[hooge1]

Nice picture Joe,

Unlike a armour piercing round which will cleanly penetrate through a steel plate a reversed bullet will smack in the steel plate with such force it blows out a hole.

Nice find

Nick

[Ghost]

When did opposing sides start using armour plate? It certainly was not used on early tanks.

Alan

[Retlaw]

I've been reading this topic with some interest, having loaded my own ammunition for .303 7.62 and 9mm para since 1960. In those days whilst Berdan primers and Nobel Powders were available, reloading dies and such were not, had to make all my own dies from silver steel. A lot of the comments I've read show that some members have no idea of the effects of so called reversing of bullets would have. With the belt of .303 I think those could be manufacturing faults, considering the millions of rounds that were made in WW1. I would expect the cases to have a bulge below the neck, where the bullet tip forced the cardboard wad into the cordite, the case necks on .303 were swaged to bullet diam after the cordite and wad were seated, and the bullet practically sits on the wad.

Reversing Spitzer shaped bullets would allow gasses to pass the bullet before it met the rifling, and may even lose enough, for the bullet to stay in the barrel.

I certainly would'nt risk it. Besides which, where would you get bullet pullers and reseaters in WW1.

Found the above picture in a local paper, my comments inserted.

Retlaw.

[ph0ebus]

Hi all,

Would anyone here know how to get in touch with Dr. Alexander Fasse? I need to speak with him regarding one of the sources he used in his dissertation (Geschichte des 2. Kurhessischen Feldartillerie-Regts. Nr 47 1899-1919 Fulda 1920). Please send me a PM if you can.

Thanks,

-Daniel

[MikB]

hi all,

found this a few years back at flers with a sniper plate and two bayonets.

joe.

I don't think reversed bullets striking a steel plate, at any range where penetration could be realistically hoped for, could end up looking like this. Whether or not the penetration occurred, the jacket would likely be destroyed in any recognisable form because of the thousands of ft.lb. involved in the collision.

I'd suspect that what these may be are remains of rounds fired from aircraft or into the air, arriving at the ground tail-first at some 300 ft/sec in the behaviour typical of projectiles at that end of their trajectory.

Regards,

MikB