MAP OF SECOND BATTLE OF GAZA

[TerryK]

Some time ago I saw an excellent colour map of the 2nd Battle of Gaza on this site. Can anyone tell me who owns this map?

[stevenbecker]

Terry,

Mate I am unsure what map you are refering to but one that was here was put on by Tosun.

Its from the Turkish History and covers there forces and postions in detail.

Bill also had a number of maps which were from the British collection at the AWM which are detailed.

The third was by our israili mate who has give a site to go to where you can and compare these two types of maps one an old map and the other a modern map of the area.

Cheers

S.B

[Lynn Sharpe]

I would be interested to see this map. My father received gunshot wounds to both arms during the 2nd Battle of Gaza. He was serving with the 5th Battalion the Norfolk Regiment. I have the war diary extract for the day he was shot.

Cheers, FHA

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Is it possible to post the WD extract of the 5th Norfolks.

My interest is the Camel Corps and that Bn (5 Norfolks) assisted in the 1st Anzac Bn ICC taking (in part) the Tank Redoubt.

I would be very interested in what it said about that day.

Cheers

S.B

[Lynn Sharpe]

Hi Steve,

Glad to oblige. This is my own transcription so hope I haven't made any errors! I'm female so perhaps not so 'up' on military jargon as you guys! Happy to accept any corrections!

Here goes:

19 April 1917

Artillery bombardment commenced on Turks lines at 05.30, lasting two hours. 163rd Brigade ordered to attack 07.30. 5th Norfolks being on the right of 163rd Brigade frontage, 4th Norfolks on left with 8th Hampshires in support and 5th Suffolks as reserve. The trenches to be attacked were 2,500 – 3,000 yards from line held by 163rd Brigade. One tank proceeded in advance to assist the operations. Heavy shell fire from enemy artillery commenced immediately upon the battalion moving forward, which caused casualties.

The advance continued and a portion of enemy’s trenches including redoubt on the right were entered. Here the tank was put out of action owing to a breakage by shells fires setting fire to it. Severe *enfiladery fire from well placed machine guns caused heavy casualties in this battalion, and it was found impossible to resist counter attack launched by enemy.

The battalion retired taking up a line 1,500 yards from Turkish positions. Casualties:- Officers 1 killed, 9 wounded, 6 wounded and missing. Other Ranks 13 killed, 401 wounded, 174 missing, 25 wounded and missing and 30 taken prisoner. This line was consolidated during the night and wire entanglements erected. The 161st Brigade having come up, the 163rd Brigade was withdrawn into reserve night of 19 – 20 April 1917 to WAOI NOKHABIAR.

Note. On the following day, six further deaths were reported of wounds received on 19 April 1917.

Here (hopefully) is my father. Man nearest the camera having his arms dressed by a nurse. I presume this was taken in a military hospital (perhaps in Alexandria)?

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k145/Hor...ogy/WW1Dad3.jpg

And in uniform:

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k145/Hor...ArmyUniform.jpg

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

FamilyHistoryAddict

G'day matess

Just to help you out with your excellent transcription:

Severe *enfiladery fire = Severe enfilading fire

WAOI NOKHABIAR = Wadi Nukhabir

On the map below which is extracted from the Official British War History I have outlined the section of the line held by the 5th Norfolks and Wadi Nukhabir. This is the before Gaza2 action with all units near their start off lines - you can see the outpost line of the 8th ALHR to the right of your father's unit.

Cheers

Bill

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

FamilyHistoryAddict

The following map is the actual battle mentioned in the War Diary. You will notice that the ICC - Steve's interest - is right next to the battalion your father was in at the time.

Cheers

Bill

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

FamilyHistoryAddict

And here is the tank route that attacked on that day. This map was drawn up by Steve. You can see the position of your father's battalion at the top left hand corner.

Cheers

Bill

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Thanks for the WD entry for that day but I was hoping for more on what the Bn did during the Tank Redoubt fighting in which the Camel Bn was involved.

To help with the map I sketched for Bill the numbering of the small sub units and camel compamies which were numbered not lettered as your Bn was.

I also enclose part of my charpter on this battle of the actions of the 1st Anzac Bn ICC which is taken from a camel Corps view that is, I am sorry for the small British content but real info from there part in the action has been very hard to find:

"The battle plan called for the 1st Battalion to “Move on to the ridge on the right of the 163rd Brigade, the left battalion in the Camel Brigade will advance and conform to the movement of that Brigade.” which meant the 1st battalion would advance with the 163rd Brigade which had placed its jump off tapes about 200 yards in front of the 2nd Company, their right flank Battalion was the 1/5th Norfolk which would act as the guide for our advance as Divisional orders called for the Camel companies to bypass the main redoubt as it would be secured by the British infantry, as our companies would push on to secure the defences to the rear of the redoubt.

On Thursday the 19th April the cold morning air was broken by the sound of heavy guns with Zero hour at 5.30 am this preparation bombardment was to last for two hours as they pounded the redoubts along the main Turkish line assisted by the navy and concentrating there fire on Gaza and the strong defences of Ali Muntar. At 7.20 am the Divisional 18 pdr Batteries took over laying down fire on the main points to be attacked, the display was quite impressive but was later found that most of the shells had missed there indented targets.

At Zero hour plus two (7.30 am) the word was given to advance and the tank allocated to the attack moved from behind Dumbell Hill into a position in between the 1/5th Norfolk’s and the 1st Battalion. This tank was a MK1 female called HMLS Nutty under command of 2/Lieutenant Frank Carr and his crew of seven men, it moved off to the rear of and between the 1st Battalion and 1/5th Norfolk’s but due to a small wadi it was forced to the right, crossing behind the 1st Battalion in front of Sheikh Abbas ridge as it then moved towards the objective to the north-west back across the front of the 1st Battalion as it advanced to catch up with the 1/5th Norfolk’s.

The 2nd Company had moved off promptly at 7.30 to cover the 2000 yards they would need to traverse before reaching the enemy trenches but first they had to align themselves with the 1/5th Norfolk but carrying the weight of 300 rounds of ammunition (Camel brigade SOP) and stores of a pick and shovel per three men and over the soft sand quickly exhausted the men (this was exceeding the load authorized in Divisional orders by General Hare of 150 rounds per man or the 250 rounds in the Imperial Mounted Division orders). The infantry with a shorter distance to travel kept up a strong pace forcing the cameleers to continue moving and not to advance by section rushes. The leading companies were deployed on a section front with three extended lines in each section, Lewis guns were placed to the right of the second line as the companies moved from artillery formation into extended order after moving a few hundred yards.

The enemy had quickly spotted the advance of the Tank and our troops then laid a sporadic fire along the line of advancing men, a number were hit but the men pushed on under the steady fire of shell and machine gun. About 8 am the 1st Battalion was rejoined by HMLS Nutty which had moved across their front from the right and soon attracted the attention of a number of enemy Batteries which began to pound the area around the tank and the companies of the 1st Battalion and 5th Norfolk’s, this fire was both heavy and extremely accurate and it appeared to the men to be singling out individuals, the enemy had plenty of time to range the ground and its shooting showed its expertise and it was said by the soldiers of the Camel Brigade “to be the finest bit of shooting they had ever seen” with the enemy never wasting a shell moreover it was under this now continuous fire that the 2nd company were forced to shift to their left as they followed in the wake of the tank. The men had closed in behind the tank for protection from the fusillade but it only served as a focal point to the enemy gunners, as they struggled under the weight of there loads and the enemies salvos, the infantry was still in front of the cameleers and fell in behind the tank as it passed them while the 2nd company had to kept on the move till a small sand ridge was gained about 8.15 am.

This small ridge was between 350 to 500 yards from the enemy redoubt and there the shattered and exhausted remnants of the two Battalions took shelter as the tank was hit and lost direction in a small wadi between the ridge and the redoubt. Meanwhile Captain Campbell sent orders back to the 3rd Company to conform to him as the 4th company had disappeared to his right in the smoke and dust and his own company was severely hit.

The 163rd Brigade at this time committed the 1/8th Hants Battalion which had been in support to assist with the attack, but this Battalion was decimated in moving forward trying to reach the 5th Norfolk’s and only a few gallant men of the right flanking companies struggled through the fire to reinforce the beleaguer force, these joined the remainder of the Norfolk’s and Camel companies around 08.30 am.

Meanwhile the advance by the 4th company and Battalion Headquarters had been drawn to the east to adhere to orders to bypass the redoubt and conform with the 11th company but the heavy cross fire had forced them to seek cover in a small wadi which ran to west off of the main Wadi Sihan just as the 2nd company had been drawn west towards the 163rd Brigade, a gap was now created between his forward companies and Lieutenant Colonel Langley was forced to committed his small reserve of two sections of the 1st Company under Captain Cashman to fill this gap. In the meanwhile the 3rd company had struggled forward to support Captain Campbell and under heavy shell fire had followed the line of bodies belonging to the 2nd company. They reached the small sand ridge shortly after 8.30 am which was occupied by the sheltering 2nd Company and the remains of the 5th Norfolk’s and 8th Hants and soon became embroiled in the fight with the Turkish defences in which both companies were heavily hit by the enemies fire and suffered many casualties with Captain Naylor wounded yet continued to lead.

Around 8.40 am the tank HMLS Nutty appeared again under a cloud of dust and exploding shells driving straight for the redoubt, seeing this Captain Campbell decided that he could no longer follow his orders and bypass the redoubt but now must make a dash and secure the fortification.

He lined a number of Lewis gunners along the top of the small ridge and using there fire ordered the men to advance, both the 2nd and 3rd companies fixed bayonets and rose to the attack. These companies had started the day with a little over one hundred men in both, now barely half that number had survived and as the Turkish fire hit these heroes that number was again sadly reduced but they surged on and made the Turkish line under a volley of rifle fire and with the help of soldiers from the 5th Norfolk and 8th Hants set about clearing the trenches “with the bayonet”. The wounded Captain Naylor had insisted in leading his men forward only to be shot in the head on reaching the enemies trenches in a life or death struggle to capture it, the death of Captain Naylor, who had never been well esteemed by his men after an incident at Sollum in 1916, but after this day that view changed.

The Turks which occupied this part of the redoubt put up a stout defence but the shock of the tank and the aggressive attitude of our troops proved to much for them as they broke and ran back to their rear defences some throwing away their weapons but between 20 and 50 Turks were captured, 20 prisoners by Sergeant JW Parson B Company 8th Hants, these prisoners were promptly gathered and sent to the rear under guard of several wounded men from the British and Camel companies but few survived the bullet swept ground of no man’s land.

Meanwhile the redoubt at this time was a scene of chaos as the tank was under close fire by two four gun batteries, this intensity continued as the tank belching fire and smoke had entered the redoubt dealing with enemy machine guns but bellied in the first trench were it was then seen to be hit by three HE shells which broke its track and bust into flames forcing its abandonment by the brave crew and so it was left as a target for the enemy gunners, but thanks to the tank the damage had been done and our small forces had secured a vital tenure in the redoubt by 9 am.

Captain Campbell now took control of the survivors and with only about thirty men remaining of the two Camel companies he placed the remnants of the 2nd company in the centre and the stronger 3rd company on the right flank, still most of the men were mixed together and fought with who ever took command. On one flank Sergeant Charlie Greenway who had taken command of his section after the officer was wounded continued to fire on the panicked Turks as they raced to the rear.

Meanwhile on the left flank the remainder of the British Battalions in all about twenty men under Captain Blyth B Company 5th Norfolk’s occupied and extended their hold in the trench and formed a defence following the death of Lieutenant Colonel Grissell. These measures were necessary as there were not enough men to control the whole redoubt so it had to be held by a number of strong points. In the centre Campbell placed six Lewis guns along the exposed top of the trench to keep any Turkish counterattack to the flanks. The enemy had now retired to their secondary defences which were still on a higher elevation to our men and there poured a strong fire into our positions.

During the morning the endurance of Captain Campbell and his men was tested under the increasing pressure of the enemy, six runners were dispatched back to Lieutenant Colonel Langley all requesting reinforcement and ammunition but none arrived in time all disappeared in the exposed ground between the redoubt and our lines. One man Private Edward Richardson carried a message out and after going 50 yards was shot three times and despite these serious wounds crawled back with his message arriving to late and Corporal Bill Hope the Battalion Signal Corporal was killed carry such a massage. While Private Bert Galli had tried to get through with three camels loaded with small arms ammunition but the animals were killed by heavy fire, Galli tried again during the day but was forced to stop but never the less did succeed in bringing some much needed ammunition to the 4th Company.

The loss of this redoubt caused considerable concern in the enemies’ camp and Battalions of the 161st Regiment were rushed to this threatened sector, meanwhile the reserve company of the 165th Regiment was sent to the Tank redoubt from the area of Khirbet Sihan and began to infiltrate towards our troops in the redoubt.

Around 10 am groups of the enemy were observed gathering to the flanks and they began to move slowly forward in one case being driven by a German officer who recklessly exposed himself to our fire yet bore a charmed life without being hit. These new troops now found the redoubt was not held in any strength and small parties of the enemy soon established pockets amongst our posts which soon became untenable with the strong cross fire and with the shortage of ammunition we were forced to retire further along the trench onto the rear posts thus our men retired fighting step by step to the rearmost trenches where they had broken in hours before. Among the heroes of this contest was Sergeant Wally Finley of the 2nd company who was killed resisting the enemy allowing our men to escape and form a new bomb block and Sergeant Albert Cook, Privates Soles Nassau and Richard Biggs of the 3rd company who fought until overrun and were never seen again?

The Cameleers were now using a lot of Turkish ammunition and bombs as our own ammunition was exhausted never the less with this increasing pressure they could not hold out for much longer.

Shortly after 11 pm as Captain Campbell sorted out the last of the Camel company survivors in the remaining section of trench, the Lewis gunners were still in action and broke up a number of enemy concentrations as the Turks prepared to drive the last of our men out of the redoubt, Lieutenant Bill Ellis was sent to the left as some soldiers were seen retiring but he was wounded and as the ammunition now gave out and with no hope of reinforcements or ammunition to continue the battle Captain Campbell had no option but to order the survivors to withdraw, the word was quickly passed to Captain Blyth who at first wanted to fight it out to the finish but faced with the inedible they agreed to retire. Before he left Captain Campbell went to check on his Lewis gun teams, to ask for volunteers to cover the withdrawal but found only one wounded survivor Private William Barry who was ordered to retire and despite a broken arm carried his Lewis gun out.

There was much confusion in the trenches at this time as not all the men received the word to go while others found themselves cut off by the Turks who appeared all over, while others seeing the retreat ordered the men to stay and fight and cover the retirement. A similar scene occurred with the British as those who couldn’t make the trip back were left to be captured.

Captain Campbell had set off with Lieutenant Ernest Aylwin and CQMS Harry Malcolm (who should have remained in the rear but had joined the attack for the fun of it) they became separated in the smoke and rifle fire and only Campbell made it back without a scratch the sole officer of nine from the two Australian Camel companies who took part in the assault to do so. The survivors had retreated out of the redoubt to the right rear in the direction of the 4th company as the ground to the rear was strongly covered by the enemy’s fire. Meanwhile the 1st company had moved into a conspicuous position between the redoubt and the 4th company to provide the link but they were soon forced to cover the retirement of the 2nd and 3rd companies from the protection of a small wadi but with only two small sections Captain Cashman was limited in what he could do and he held his ground as a counterattack was expected from the enemy, while in this position the company lost Private John Mitchell killed and two officers (Bill Ellis and Les Stock), and a number of men wounded. He did establish contact after 1 pm with the remainder of the British Battalion’s who had dug in around the small sand ridge.

During the long afternoon the wounded lay exposed to the sun lying in agony waiting for someone to get them but with nearly all of their mates now dead or wounded most waited in vain. Despite this a large number of our wounded were brought in by men such as Sergeant Bob Love of the 4th company who went out into no man’s land to help recover the many victims, yet they where to numerous for all to be recovered and some had to be left to the clemency of the enemy. LtCol Langley had set up a casualty dressing station to the rear of his HQ in a small wadi and all the wounded who could be reached were brought there for dressing before moving them to the rear. One of those brought in wounded was Lance Sergeant James Anderson an original from the 8th Battalion AIF who was suffering from a gun shot wound to the buttocks while others were not so lucky Private Sid Cherry a Canadian who had enlisted in the 3rd Battalion AIF in 1915 before transferring to the Camel Corps and Private Wilhelm Konsten one of a number of Finnish born seaman were both killed.

As the action continued in the redoubt the 4th company had become pinned down behind a small sand ridge about 400 yards to the east of the redoubt and Captain Denson was ordered to dig in by Lieutenant Colonel Langley and await developments and to minimize casualties. This had happened because true to their orders the company had continued to advance for the rear defences of the enemy redoubt and despite the Turkish fire they soon found that the company was isolated in between the tank redoubt and the Wadi Sihan with no support available but for the 11th company on its right. The men were forced to hind behind a small Wadi and engage the enemy, also to cover the withdrawal of the 2nd and 3rd companies but the enemy had them in a deadly cross fire from the redoubt and the Wadi Sihan and sustained many casualties in this exposed position these included Sergeant Herbert Perkins, Privates Arthur Emery, Neil Munro, John White and Richard Winslett killed and three officers and 27 men wounded.

When Captain Campbell and his men had retired from the tank redoubt there still remained a small garrison who were left to fight it out alone but with little ammunition remaining it was only a matter of time before they were overrun. This isolated party numbering over thirty men of all nationalities, these continued to challenge the enemy till around 2 pm when the Turks broke into the last section of trench. There the wounded Lieutenant Bill Fender of the 2nd company found himself in a trench with a number of men and after being hit in the neck was abandoned as dead and captured along with a collection of men most of whom were wounded, about 11 Australians and eight British soldiers were captured when Lieutenant W. Strachan-Roberts of the 8th Hants tried to fight it out in the last trench but were compelled to surrender. Two men Privates Roy Kelly and Bert Story from the 3rd company escaped the Turks during capture and set off with bullets chasing them as they ran back to our lines Kelly was wounded and Story had five bullets through his hat but both survived to tell the tail.

During this time Maj Marsh OC 8th Hants gathered approximately forty survivors around him to form a line in the sand outside the redoubt. Among this group was Lt Wharton 1/4th Norfolk’s along with Lt Buxton from the 163rd Bde HQ. They remained in this exposed position bringing in the many wounded including Corporal Burtenshaw and Private Toogood, but also waited for any expected Turkish counterattack until the 5th Suffolk’s arrived.

At 1 pm General Hare had ordered the 161st Brigade forward to reinforce the line held by the 163rd Brigade which had suffered over 1500 casualties including two Battalion and twelve Company commanders, when they arrived the 1/5th Suffolk (163rd Bde) and the 1/6th Essex Battalions (161st Bde) were ordered to make a fresh attack on the redoubt. At 2.20 pm the Battalions commenced their advance but had not gone far when the attack was stopped by General Hare, this was due to the withdrawal from the redoubt by the last of our forces and declining situation on his right flank by the retirement of the 4th Light Horse Brigade and the problems with the Imperial Mounted Division.

At 5.55 pm orders were received that “the battalion was to withdraw back to the ridge” and Lieutenant Colonel Langley arranged for the clearing station to be removed before moving the 1st and 4th companies. At 7.45 after having gathering all the wounded that could be recovered the remnants of the battalion quietly moved back to Sheikh Abbas ridge in the safety of darkness undisturbed by the enemy and found the 7th Essex Battalion in position to cover their retirement, the 1st Battalion then moved to the rear of the ridge to take up a reserve position.

During the night the number of Australian prisoners would increased as the enemy cleared the ground between the lines and in all twenty two Australian cameleers from the 2nd and 3rd companies were captured by the Turks and an unknown number of British soldiers which included the crew of the intrepid tank HMLS Nutty, 2/Lieutenant Frank Carr age 35 from Birmingham UK the daring tank commander had been badly wounded during the battle and died from his wounds on the battlefield, Lieutenant Bill Fender the only Australian Camel Corps officer to be captured during the war, had transferred to the Cameleers from the 6th Light Horse Regiment in 1916 and was 29 years old from Ashfield in Sydney NSW but he died in the hands of the enemy that night before medical help could reach him, this unfortunate fact was not know by the family until two years later when the prisoners were released as he had been reported as a prisoner after the battle by the Turks and the family endeavoured to discover his whereabouts but heard no word of him until 1919.

Among the many Australian prisoners were Private Harold Vidler one of the last Lewis gunners who with Private Phil Fletcher had fought to the last round when the order to retire was given they had set off after Captain Campbell but after going a few yards Vidler was shot threw the knee and Fletcher disappeared in the smoke also wounded, Vidler lay wounded in front of the redoubt till morning when a number of Turkish looters discovered him, they killed another man near him with a bayonet but spared him and was found later by a enemy patrol. Private Charles Flatt was wounded outside the redoubt in the charge he had been shot in three places in the leg and thigh and was found by a Turkish patrol during the night. Private Walter Humphris had also been seriously wounded in the charge and was later recovered that night by the Turks he lasted a few days before dying from his wounds in a Turkish hospital. Among the 11 Cameleers captured with Lieutenant Roberts of the Hampshire Regiment were Private Reuben Blechynden (wounded), Corporal Alex Currie, Privates Joe Dodd, Phil Fooks, Tom Halliday, Daniel Jones (wounded), Ernest Ingram (wounded), Phil O’Hare, Charles Otway (wounded), Lance/Corporal Arthur Tierney and Private John Angus. Other wounded taken prisoner included Sergeant George Paltridge, Privates Fred Jeffrey, William Simmons and Noel Sherrie, while others were trapped in the redoubt and surrendered for lack of ammunition Privates Pat Duffy, Albert Kimber and Sergeant Fred Saville."

And the final losses I have from the British 5 Norfolks;

"A comparison between the British Infantry Battalions involved directly in the assault on Tank Redoubt show they lost the following casualties, the 1/5th Norfolk’s (TF) Battalion 5 officers (Captain’s Beck MC, Birbeck, Cubitt, Lieutenant’s Gardiner and Tebbutt) and 199 men killed in action with 1 officer (Lieutenant Hervey) and 17 men died from wounds while eight officers and 401 men were wounded and 4 officers and 29 men were reported as missing possibly prisoners or among the many dead."

Cheers

S.B

[Lynn Sharpe]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the corrections. It's good to run my transcription past people who know what they are talking about. I'll correct my notes.

I have some more War Diary extracts I can post on here - mostly again to do with Norfolk Regiment at Gallipoli. I'll get the diary extracts out and get them in some sort of order and post them. Thanks also for the maps - fantastic! Thanks Steve too for more info about the battle - it really brings it to life.

I've really got into all this stuff since I discovered my father's service records at The National Archives. I'm one of the lucky ones - not many of the service records survived.

I'm quite upset that more about the Gaza stuff never appears on WW1 DVD Documentaries. Gallipoli always gets mentioned of course; but the Gaza Battles hardly ever get a mention.

Cheers, FHA

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

FamilyHistoryAddict

Since the 5th Battalion, The Norfolk Regiment was originally a Territorial unit and then the "The Sandringham Pals", I am just wondering which company your father was in - the towns are the giveaway if you are unsure.

* A Company at King's Lynn

* B Company at Downham (detachments at Hunstanton, Thornham, Hilgay and Stoke Ferry)

* C Company at Fakenham (detachments at Wells, Syderstone, Aylsham and Corpusty)

* D Company at Dereham (detachments at Castle Acre and Swaffham)

* E Company at Sandringham (detachments at Dersingham, Wolferton, Hillington and West Newton)

* F Company at Cromer (detachments at Melton Constable, Holt, Sheringham, North Walsham and Gunton)

* G Company at Great Yarmouth

* H Company at Great Yarmouth

Was already he already in the Battalion when it became known as "The Vanished Battalion" or afterwards?

Cheers

Bill

[Lynn Sharpe]

Hi Bill,

My father joined the 5th Norfolks on 26 February 1913. He was in C Company as he lived at Wells Next the Sea and he enlisted there.

I had the BBC DVD film "All The Kings Men" starring David Jason bought for me as a Christmas Present. Apparently all those companies (A,B,C,D,E,F,G, H) merged into about four companies but we're not sure who merged with who. Not sure which company the Sandringham Company ended up with. They could have been in the same lot as Dad but I believe many of them got slaughtered at Gallipoli so perhaps there weren't many of them left by the time of Gaza. I believe one of the Becks were killed on the same day as my father received gunshot wounds at 2nd Battle of Gaza (19 April 1917). There is a man on the Wells Next the Sea War Memorial who also got killed on the 19th April 1917 and his army number is about 3 digits away from my father's and he lived about 100 yards away from Dad's home. I expect Dad knew him. They may have enlisted together. I know Mum said Dad lost so many mates during those campaigns.

After my father recovered from his gunshot wounds, he seems not to have been fit enough for front line service and was in several regiments: The Rifle Brigade, The Labour Corps and finally in the Royal Engineers as a Railway Fireman on Military Railways. I presume he was involved with moving arms, ammunition and supplies to the troops. He served abroad until 1919.

After the war he joined The London Fire Brigade and served all through the London Blitz unscathed but he had a few close calls like getting up from his bunk at the Fire Station to answer a call of nature, only to return and find an unexploded bomb had passed through the building and his bunk!

Apparently my father was regarded as a 'lucky charm' by his Firefighter mates and they all wanted to work with him! His luck continued and my Firefighter Dad's service records were found in the Burnt Records! I wonder if he was there trying to put the fire out at Arnside Street where his records nearly went up in smoke!

Cheers, FHA

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

FHA

Thanks for sharing your father's journey. I found the story most interesting.

Glad to see your father was a lucky charm. That usually rubs off onto the later generations. Both my mother and father were lucky during WW2, often surviving against impossible odds through sheer luck. Probably why my life has been built on luck. Doesn't matter how grim things are, it always turns out right.

Cheers

Bill

[T8HANTS]

Hi FHA

For a very good account of what went wrong with the action by 163 Brigade on the 12th August 1915, and in particular the 5th Norfolk's, try and get a copy of the article written in Stand To!, journal of the Western Front Association Number 58, April 2000, by Dick Rayner, also available as a small pamphlet, possibly available from the Gallipoli Association. Or if you cannot get hold of that I would be happy to send you a copy of an article I wrote on the same action, from the perspective of the 8th Hants (I.W.Rifles), which touches on the problems of the 5th Norfolk's.

As for "All the King's Men" file it under fiction not documentary.

I am not sure that the title Sandringham Pals was even used by the 5th Norfolks at the time, but has been retro applied to the battalion. To put things in perspective there are apparently 77 names on the Sandringham Memorial, 39 belong to the 5th Norfolks, 21 of these died during the Gallipoli campaign, 18 on the 12th August. The 5th Norfolks lost 14 officers and 142 other ranks on the 12th, a tragic amount by any standard, but these figures puts Sandringham related casualties at about 1 in 8.

Gareth

[Lynn Sharpe]

Hello Gentlemen,

Thank you both for your replies. Yes, I did think that "All The Kings Men" was more fiction than fact but it gave me some idea of uniforms and bits of background info.

I would be very happy to receive the article you wrote. I'll PM you my email address. I shall also try and get hold of the other article you spoke of. I like to have anything that increases my knowledge of my father's experiences at Gallipoli or Gaza.

Best regards,

FHA

[steve fuller]

I like to have anything that increases my knowledge of my father's experiences at Gallipoli or Gaza.

Although it os not Norfolk related, the 5th Bedfords were in the 54th Division along with the 5th Norfolks and also a Territorial Battalion. For what its worth, I have a few bits here - http://www.bedfordregiment.org.uk/5thbattalion.html and a battle story from 15th August 1915 (Gallipoli) here - http://www.bedfordregiment.org.uk/id16.html that may put a little meat on the bones perhaps?

[Lynn Sharpe]

Thanks for this Steve - I shall enjoy reading all it.

Cheers, FHA

[Lynn Sharpe]

You may have aleady seen this website, but here is more info about the 'Vanished Battalion'. I believe the chap who ran this website passed away in 2006.

http://user.online.be/~snelders/sand.htm

Cheers, FHA