Xmas on Gallipoli

[PhilB]

Following the events on the Western Front at Xmas 1914, were there any festivities on the peninsula at Xmas 1915? Would the Turks have taken a dim view of them? No pictures of Johnny Turk & Bruce Digger swapping souvenirs at Lone Pine? Phil B

[Coldstreamer]

Turk(ey)s have a dim view of Xmas even now

On a serious note, and I dont know the answer, but what religion would most of the Turks be and therefore would they be celebrating Xmas?

[michaeldr]

quote: "were there any festivities on the peninsula at Xmas 1915? Would the Turks have taken a dim view of them? No pictures of Johnny Turk & Bruce Digger swapping souvenirs at Lone Pine?"

By 25th December 1915 the Diggers had left Anzac and the rest had departed Suvla; Johnny Turk had those places to himself by then

At Helles though it was business as usual with lads getting killed and maimed.

After describing how "one of my Leading hands names Robert Fear was wounded. The bullet went through his right breast & came out his back. We bandaged him up & sent him off to the ambulance." the diary of Sub-Lieutenant James Curzon Hilton of the Hood Batt., RND, describes "I went down about 1.0 pm & had my Christmas lunch with Mr Asquith, Sidney & Morrison. We had bully beef stew which was very good, followed by bread & cheese. We had a drink of port, presented by Mr. Kelly of 'B' Coy. Everyone expecting the Turks to attack us today, so we were all on the q v.....................................

Only two of us were able to get to the Communion Service, ie Surgeon Molesworth & Myself. Padre Close held the service in Molesworth's dug out. I was very glad to be able to go on Christmas Day ...........................For my Christmas dinner I had a cup of soup from the men's galley, and a bit of cold plum pudding. I went round afterwards with rum, each man getting a tot. I turned in about 10.00 pm, after having spent a busy & somewhat unique Christmas Day."

The extract is from Len Sellers' magazine 'RND' issue N.18, Sept 2001 [the diary of Sub-Lt Hilton is Copyright R. E. Charter, nee Hilton.]

regards

Michael

[PhilB]

I assumed they`d be muslims and hence the dim view. But, if nothing else, it might have been a way for the British to make things appear normal and perhaps the Turks did recognize Xmas in some form. Phil B

[michaeldr]

Despite the severe wound of Robert Fear and some others who did not make it

at least one Field Ambulance was not too busy to celebrate Christmas Day in 1915 on Gallipoli

Below is the Dug Out of 2nd Field Ambulance with right to left

Knowles, Murray, R.C. Padre, Sparrow, 2 batmen behind, Standforth, Sewell, Mayne & Taylor

Once again, with very grateful acknowledgements to Len Sellers for his magazine RND; issue No.23, December 2002 in this case. The photograph is credited to the Mayne Papers at the Liddle Collection, Leeds University

Note no one is looking at the camera - What have we missed?

[John_Hartley]

Loads of festive fun and games in the trenches of 6/Manchester, recorded in the War Diary:

"Christmas Day: Quiet morning. Orders issued to make Turks believe we were evacuating trenches at night. Not a shot fired from dark until moonrise 21.30, when we opened fire with rifles and artillery. Turks then opened fire and shelled our trenches very heavily."

[bob lembke]

Guys;

I'll take a shot at a few questions raised, although I have no idea on the central question.

It is said today that 99% of Turks are Muslims; there certainly were more religious minorities in 1915, and the major ones had traditionally had quite special status, rights (like not being drafted into the army, and their own courts for many types of disputes), and burdens (like higher taxes). But by 1915 some of these special status things were being eroded, partially in the name of reform, although the end result being a worse situation for a minority. Some of the recognized minorities were Christian, Greek Orthodox, Armenians (Catholic? Orthodox? Their own church? Footnote - Recently I rode a cab, got chatting with the driver {I addressed him in Arabic, sensing Mid-East}; he turned out to be a Muslim Armenian from Iran. So much for stereotypes.) There also were and are significant numbers of Arab Christians in areas of the Middle East then ruled by Turkey, although I think there were few if any Turkish Arab troops fighting at Gallipoli.

Also by 1915 there were not many (or any) Christians in Turkish fighting units, with the possible exception of Turkish Arab units; Armenians, for example, were by then in labor battalions. I don't know the details here. So there probably were few to no Christians in the Turkish soldiers at Gallipoli.

However, Muslims revere Jesus Christ as one of the five principal prophets of al-Islam (Moses, Abraham, John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and Mohammed {Blessed be His Name}), and they believe in the virgin birth of Christ, although not in his divinity, nor that of Mohammed, for that matter. Their version of Christ's birth is different, and to me, somewhat amusing. I understand that the Qur'ran has more text about the Virgin Mary than the Christian New Testament does.

But that does not mean that Christmas had the same meaning or traditions to an observant Turk than to an Englishman. I don't even know if there is any special observance at Christmas for Muslims, or indeed when they feel that the virgin birth occurred. Nor do Western scholars neccessarily agree that this event occurred on December 25th; I think I recently saw a scholarly vote for a date in March.

I thought that the above discussion might be of interest. There is a lot of rubbish in the popular perception of al-Islam, a lot of it probably intentionally generated.

Michael - As to the photo, with no one looking at the camera; if you look at the picture, shadows, etc.; the men are seemingly looking at the source of the artificial illumination for the photo, possibly a second photographer with a "flash powder" set-up. In those days such a process was unusual and rather dramatic, I think. Or perhaps someone had set off a grenade to provide the illumination. That also would have provoked attention.

Bob Lembke

[MartinWills]

I believe rather more was celebrated on Mudros after the evacuation and I know Christmas cards were sent from there.

One tale is that of the Australian Comforts fund who sent much warm clothing for Christmas. By the time it caught up with the Aussies they were in a warm Egyptian climate. A decision was taken with backing from Australia to send the warm clothes on to the allied troops at Salonika who were in the midst of a very cold spell. It took a couple of weeks for the hats, gloves, mufflers etc to reach Salonika by which time there was a very unseasonal warm spell to the North of Greece.

[PhilB]

So no evidence of fraternization in nomansland then? Phil B

[John_Hartley]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Dec 27 2006, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So no evidence of fraternization in nomansland then? Phil B

Certainly not on 42nd Div's front. I doubt whether the lads from the north west would have been too inclined to be chummy with Johnny Turk by then.

John

[PhilB]

1st Ypres and (propoganda) reports of German barbarity didn`t stop them in 1914 though? Phil B

[awakefield]

My recent book 'Christmas in the Trenches' includes an account by Corporal Stanley Freeman (RND Signals Coy) in which they have a large Xmas meal, including a Tenedos turkey given by their officer. Freeman then attends a church service in a marquee and then reports on much music played by their improvised band, games of cards, drinking wine etc.

Freeman's full account is held by the National Army Museum.

ALAN

[michaeldr]

Congrats on the book Alan; you must let us have more details - full title, publisher, etc etc

quote: "Freeman then attends a church service in a marquee and then reports on much music played by their improvised band"

This must have been on one of the islands (Tenedos?)

I cannot imagine it being on the peninsula itself.

re the islands; Brad King's book on the "Royal Naval Air Service 1912-1918" has a lovely picture [iWM HU 67867] of the Christmas Day 1915 football match between the Officers and the men of 3 Wing and relates the story

"Five minutes into the game a Turkish plane came over. Arthur Beeton, playing in goal for the men's side, recalls: 'I watched this damned Turk plane and it went round and round over the pitch.' I thought, 'Is he going to drop his bombs?' No, he went across to the sand dunes and dropped them out of the way, a proper gentlemen he was"

regards

Michael

[awakefield]

Michael

According to Freeman's account the church marquee was set up on W Beach. Freeman himself had, just prior to Xmas, worked on the RND's winter signals dugout after their original construction had been more or less destroyed be bad weather: 21 December 1915: A thunderstorm and heavy rain last night did more damage than a month’s shelling. In many places fire and communication trenches were impassable and everywhere mud rendered movement slow and difficult. (War Diary, HQ, Royal Naval Division).

Not sure how large the said 'band' was but we are talking of men from a signals coy rather than something as large as an infantry battalion.

Full details of my book are as follows: 'Christmas in the Trenches', Sutton Publishing, Oct 2006 (ISBN: 0750941685).

In this I've covered all theatres of war where British troops served 1914-1918 and also training camps in UK, POW camps and hospitals. Plenty of first hand accounts and illustrations.

A thread exists in the Book Reviews section of this forum.

ALAN

[michaeldr]

Alan,

Many thanks for those further details - I stand corrected

Also many thanks for the info re your book

Best regards

Michael

[John_Hartley]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Dec 27 2006, 10:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1st Ypres and (propoganda) reports of German barbarity didn`t stop them in 1914 though? Phil B

Agreed. But that was 1914, not a year later.

[PhilB]

So do you reckon the troops on the Western Front wouldn`t have fraternized in Xmas 1915 if they`d been allowed? Phil B

[John_Hartley]

Phil

I think it would have been severely curtailed (although I know there are recorded small scale attempts at a "Mini-truce" in 1915). There had been another year of death and injury and the British army was no longer a group of professionals for whom truces were not an uncommon tradition.

In terms of Gallipoli, I am most familiar with 6/Manchester. They had been cut to ribbons in two "set-piece" battles and I simply don't see them wanting a few hours of exchanging ciggies and playing football up the nullahs with the enemy. Particularly when they knew they were beaten and about to be evacuated.

John

[MartinWills]

Eric Goossens, one of our Peninsula forumites reminded me on Christmas Day of Joe Murray of the RND who wrote:

A day of rejoicing for all the civilised people of the world. A day of feasting, goodwill, compliments and present. A day of family gatherings reminiscing of the bygone years, recalling the good and happy times but inwardly anxious for peace and the return of those who are dear to them. In their hearts is the constant fear that their dreams of normal family life will be shattered with the morning ‘s post.

We do not have to wait for the post. For us there is no rejoicing and certainly no feasting. The only presents we are receiving at this moment we can well do without – they are far too destructive.

He aslo pointed me to a picture in Kit Denton's volume "Gallipoli Illustrated" of a Christmas Dinner in a rather depressing looking trench. I have a recollection as well of seeing some pictures of RND officers gathered for lunch as well.