2/4th Queens Own Royal West Kent Regiment

[Myrtle]

Does anyone have information regarding the following 2/Lts of the 2/4th Royal West Kent Regiment who served at Gallipoli?

2/Lt N. P. Le Fleming - I can not find a mic for a soldier with these initials but there is a John Neville Le Fleming who may be the same. I would also like to confirm if he had any link with Tonbridge School and if his father also had links with the school as a teacher.

2/Lt J.R. Willows

2/Lt R.A. Bone

2/Lt C. Hodgson - this man may have won an MC but I can not find any sign of him in the Gazette. I need the help of a "Wonder Steve".

Thanks in anticipation.

Myrtle

[Hambo]

Myrtle

There are a number of Le Flemings on the Tonbridge roll the one who was killed (East Surreys) was the youngest of six who, at a glance, all went to Tonbridge (can't imagine the fees at today's prices).

There is a Captain M.R. Le Fleming who was at Gallipoli with the 2/4th. There is also an J Le Fleming who transferred into the 4th in Feb 1917 (he doesn't fit though altough he may be the one you came across he wasn't at Gallipoli)

M.R. was wounded at Suvla and was later attached to the MGC finishing up as a Captain.

There is quite a detailed description of his career so if this is your man I'll post the details.

I have also come across a list of officers who went overseas with the 2/4th and I can see Willows in B Compny and Le Fleming in C Company can't see the other two but the narrative says they lost 50% of the officers mostly though sickness as only 4 were through enemy action (one of them Le Fleming) so I assume there would have been some replacements?

Regards Hambo

PS might be worth dropping Jonathan Saunders a PM (I expect he'll see this anyway) as he has a data base of RWK officers

[Myrtle]

Hambo

Thank you very much for the information, especially clarifying that J. Le Fleming was not with 2/4th West Kents at Gallipoli.

2/Lt N. P. Fleming and the other officers from the West Kents Reg. appear in the Herefordshire Regimental Diary. Their names are clear to read as they have been written in capitals.

(By the way the fees would have been less if father taught at the school. There is a John Le Fleming on the 1901 census whose occupation is listed as Assistant Tutor. Interestingly W.H.R. Rivers of Craiglockhart fame was a student at Tonbridge School from 1877-1880.)

I would appreciate you posting the details for M. R. Le Fleming in case the diary entry initials are just completely wrong. Now all I need is The West Kent Diary covering early November 1915 which would probably mention the officers who were attached to the Herefords.

Myrtle

[Hambo]

Myrtle

The entry is as follows but includes some interpretations of the many initials so here goes

Captain M.R.Le Fleming

He was at Tonbridge from 1909 to 1913

Cambridge University OTC until November 1914. Appointed 2nd Lt 2/4th Battalion QORWK 17.11.14 Promoted Lt 5.5.17 seconded as Temp Lt MGC (Infantry) 6.7.16-18.1.19

Was at Gallipoli 9.8.15-15.8.15 wounded by gunshot (right leg) 15.8.15 at Suvla Bay. Returned to Gallipolli 12th of October 1915 and left 12th of December (with same regiment)

Egypt and Sinai 23.12.15-23.3.17 Palastine 23.3.17-18.10.18

Posted to MGC May 1916 attached 160th MG Company 160th Brigade 53rd Division Egyptian Expeditionary Force 12.5.16-18.6.18

Acting Captain Officer CommandingCompany 5th-31st Aug 1917 Acting Captain 2nd in command of Company 19.3.18-18.6.18 Adjutant 53rd Battalion MGC 18.6.17-18.1.19 Rumani 4-5.8.16 Gaza 27.3.17 Gaza II 17.4.17 Gaza III 14.7.17 and Advance on Jerusalem Oct -Dec 1917, Jordan Valley March 1918 General Allenby's final offensive Sept -Oct 1918 Egypt 18.10.18-18.1.19

He was mentioned in despatches for his work in Palastine

Captain TF Reserve 9.4.20 resigned commission 30.9.21 with rank of Captain

His grandfather is John Le Fleming who "though himself not and OT, he had been intimately connected with the school as a near neighbour"

I've also had a quick look at Ray Westlake's British Battalion at Gallipoli and the Battalion CO Lt Col Simpson was also wounded on the 15th of August. They were holding 700 yards of front line and he mentions "the intensity of sniping" so looks like your man was a victim of a sniper

That looks like the lot!

Happy Xmas

Hambo

[Myrtle]

Thanks again Hambo. I will file the information until I can confirm that N. P. and M. R. are the same man. Your man matches the criteria except for the initials. His grandfather was probably John Le Fleming who was born in Dalston Cumberland and appears on the 1901 census as a 59 years old private tutor. The other John Le Fleming, the assistant tutor, who I mentioned earlier was probably his son.

Merry Christmas

Myrtle

[Jonathan Saunders]

Hi Maggie - thanks for your message.

I have compiled about 100 biogrpahies on RWK offices but I am sad to say I have nothing on any of the named officers you listed.

2/Lt Hodgson did win the MC - at this moment I cant tell you when but I might be able to delve further. I am 100% certain it was not awarded for action in Gallipoli - of which the 2/4 saw very little.

As Hambro said Willows went with the 2/4 as part of the MEF and was an original officer of B Coy, as did Le Fleming who was with C Coy. Neither Bone, nor Hodgson appear on the list of original officers sent overseas. The only replacement officers to join the Bttn were from 3/4 bttn around end of Oct 1915 (I dont know if Bone and Hodgson were amongst them).

Having landed around about the 9/10 August, the Bttn spent most, if not all, of their time around Suvla. It would not have been pleasant. It was a very cold and severe winter.

I am sorry I cannot provide more.

Regards,

Jon S

[Jonathan Saunders]

2/Lt Hodgson did win the MC - at this moment I cant tell you when but I might be able to delve further. I am 100% certain it was not awarded for action in Gallipoli - of which the 2/4 saw very little.

Hodgson's MC was for action in Palestine (Gaza?) during April 1917.

Regards,

Jon S

[westkent78]

Myrtle,

A little bit more for you.

On 26th Oct 8 Officers joined.

On 31st Oct 1 officer from the 3rd Bn joined.

Sadly the war diary doesn't name them individually. These are the only mentions of officers joining in the battalion's entire stay at Gallipoli.

There are no mentions of officers being detached to other battalions, just fatigue work in early November 1915.

Hodgson was appointed Acting C.O. of A Coy from Dec 10th.

Jesse Richard Willows birth was registered at Hatfield, Herts Dec Qtr 1896. He was the son of a Lincolnshire born wholesale druggist also called Jesse and his Irish wife Lucy Ann. They were living in North Mimms in 1901.

John Le Fleming from Dalston (ie John senior) was an Army tutor in the 1880s and possibly was still doing so in 1901. He had completed an M.A. from Cambridge and was a Rev.

John was his son.

John senior had at least four other sons, who all went to Tonbridge. Laurence Julius Le Fleming b.1879 played cricket for Kent. (1897-1912) He's the East Surrey casualty killed while commanding the 9th Bn.

John junior also played for Kent 1889-99 (he died in Montreux, Switzerland in 1942).

John Neville Le Fleming was born in 1893 and I think is possibly the son of John Jnr and probably the J. Le Fleming who transferred into the 4th in 1917.

So I think we have two generations of Le Flemings who were serving during the war.

I'm not wholly convinced that John Snr. was affiliated with the school as it looks like he has some boarders or "military students" with him at "Eton House" and I've found a few references to it being a sort of finishing school for army-bound men. In 1891 John Jnr. is also operating as a Military tutor at 10. Dry Hill Road in Tonbridge and he has a number of military students with him. Eton House is on the London Road and Dry Hill Road is the adjacent road. At this time Tonbridge School owned most of the properties on these two roads, and still do, so perhaps they were providing an adjunct service to the School?

One of the playing fields at Tonbridge is called "Flemings" although this may be more in honour of their playing for Kent, if it isn't a coincidence.

Hope this is of some help,

Matthew

[Myrtle]

Jonathan & Matthew

Thank you both very much for your replies. I have transcribed the entry for 7th November 1915 from the Herefordshire Diary that mentions the West Kent officers. The 1st/1st Herefords were at 91D 2-3 Area 105 V-5-2 which I have yet to check.

I have typed the entry as seen.

2/Lts N. P. LE FLEMING, J.R. WILLOW, R.A.BONE, C.HODGSON of 2/4th West Kents were attached to the Bn this day for duty and instruction. During the day 4 trench mortar bombs were fired by the enemy in the direction of the Support trenches, 2 only of which exploded, no casualties. Weather - calm & bright.

Happy Christmas

Maggie (Myrtle)

[Nick]

Myrtle,

Whilst not covering Gallipoli, you may be interested in the following. I have a copy of the 2/4RWK War Diary for July-November 1917, which includes the following references to your people:

BONE:

25th September 1917: Lt RA BONE joined the battalion from the Base (from RFC)

HODGSON:

8th August 1917: Capt. C HODGSON took over duties of 2nd in command vice Maj JUDE on course

10th August 1917: Lieut-Col NOEL E MONEY to hospital and Capt C HODGSON assumed command of the battalion (Hodgson signed the return for end August - my italics and parentheses)

3rd September 1917 (at Belah): Lieut-Col NOEL MONEY rejoined from hospital and took over command of the battalion vice CAPT HODGSON

16th September 1917: Capt C HODGSON took over command of ‘A’ company vice Cap TD DUTTON

30th October 1917 (at Beit abu Taha): CAPTAIN C HODGSON proceeded to DIVISION HQ as liaison officer, Lieut E S NICOLL took over command of A Company - (Hodgson rejoined on 5th November at TEL KHUWEILFE battalion lost heavily on previous day fighting) my parentheses and italics

AT 0900 on 6th November 1917: Orders received for two support (B and D) companies to move out and attack HILL 1250. This they did under CAPT C HODGSON M.C. As soon as they attempted to move up the hill they came under heavy fire (machine gun and rifle) from their left flank and so were unable to reach their objective. They withdrew at dusk and these two companies moved into the outpost line to connect the battalion with the 159th Infantry Brigade.

On 20th November (RAS-el-NUKB) Hodgson formally took over command of A Company again.

WILLOWS:

On 21st November (RAS-el-NUKB): LIEUT J R WILLOWS rejoined from course (?) and took over command of C Company

Nothing on Le Fleming

Of course, the diary also names plenty of other officers in this period.

Regards

Nick

[Myrtle]

Nick

Thank you very much for your post and the information that you have supplied. I will add these details to my notes on the Herefords.

Regards

Myrtle

[paul_adam]

An old topic, but I can help a little on the le Flemings:

John Senior was a military tutor at Tonbridge School and so was his son John (Jr).

LJ le Fleming another son of John Sr, was a career soldier with the East Surrey Regt – Militia, regulars in Boer War and WW1. He was wounded twice, MID and killed on the first day of the 1918 Spring Offensive.

John Jr joined the Kent Cyclists in 1915. He subsequently served with West Kent Yeomanry and then RWK (4^th Bn)

JN le Fleming is John Jr’s son. He also served with the Kent Cyclists. He went to India with the 1/1^st that was renamed the Kent Battalion whilst in India, and served during the Third Afghan War 1919. His Medal Index Card refers RWK as do others of the Kent Cyclist Battalion.

JL and J Jr le Fleming had a brother – HM (Henry Mortimer) le Fleming – and his son was MR (Morris Ralph) le Fleming – wounded at Suvla and MID for services in Palestine 1917/18.

He was with the Cambridge OTC to Nov 14; 2^nd Lt with 2/4^th RWK 17/11/14; Lt 5/5/17 with precedence 1/6/16; seconded as Temp Lt MGC 6/7/16-18/1/19.

Gallipoli 9/8/15-15/8/15 – wounded by GSW right leg at Suvla Bay – back with battalion 21/10-12/12/15

Egypt 23/12/15-23/3/17

In May 16 was attached to 160^th MGC 160^th Brigade 53^rd Division EEF

Palestine 23/3/17-18/10/18 – was Acting Capt OC Coy 5-31/8/17, and Acting Capt 2^nd i/c Coy 19/3-18/6/18. From 18/6/18-18/1/19 Adjutant 53^rd Bn MGC 53^rd Division

Egypt 18/10/18-18/1/19

Captain TF Reserve 9/4/20

Relinquished commission 30/9/21 with rank Captain

MID 3/4/18

Edited 13 August , 2013 by paul_adam

[Myrtle]

Paul

I have been away from the Forum during the summer so have just noticed your post. Thank you very much for the extra information.

Myrtle