How many MG's in Turkish MG Co

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I have so far been told two numbers for MGs held in the MG company of a Turkish Infantry Regt.

The first is four guns and the other six.

Can you confirm how many guns were in a comapny in 1915, 1916, 1917 and 1918.

Also if possible what was the strenght of a MG company and how many Platoon in a company.

Cheers

S.B

[TerryK]

Steve,

According to Erickson's 'Ordered to Die' and to http://www.turkeyswar.com/army/organisation.htm, there were four MG per MG Company. The British 'Handbook of the Turkish Army 1916' gives a wartime establishment for the MG Company of 123 (Hotchkiss Coy) or 160 (Maxim Coy).

Terry

[stevenbecker]

Terry,

Thanks mate, I would surpose that there were four guns in 1913-15 but did the strenght of the company increase as it did for our MG companies over the years.

160 men in a Maxim Co seems more then those required for a four gun company, were they in two platoons of two MG's each with a HQ and supply platoon?

Cheers

S.B

[TerryK]

Sorry, Steve, I know no more.

[jwsleser]

Steve

I will need to check at home, but I am pretty sure the Turkish MG companies remained at 4 guns throughout the war. While the TO&E called for one company per regiment, the norm was two companies per division (three regiments). The Ottomans had difficulties meeting this limited authorization, so an increase in the number of guns per company just wasn't practical.

The only time there might have been a 6 gun Ottoman company was with the 3rd Divison at Romani. This is speculation at this time, but is based on the number of guns when compared to the number of Ottoman and German MG companies stated as present. All the sources are pretty consistant on these facts. Only a 6 gun Ottoman company makes the numbers jive.

Jeff

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Thanks for any insight as that makes sence.

The Turkish MG companies at Rafa were the 31st MG Company (31 Inf Regt), 80th MG Company (80th Inf Regt or part of it) and a MG company from the 3rd Cav Div.

I have been having a dission else were about how many MG's were captured at Magdhaba and Rafa and so far I get conficting reports.

The last soures I saw of the final count at Rafa was between four and seven Mg's captured there.

So how many MG's were with the 80th MG company is the question as Turkish records show that there were no MG's a Magdhaba but Turkish records also show that the 80th MG Co that was left out of that battle was in fact only a platoon of the 80th MG Co.

So if only a platoon then that should make 10 MG's at Rafa (4xMG's 31st MG Co, 2xMG's 80th MGCo and 4xMG's 3rd Cav MG Co).

And possibly at Magdhaba a 2xMG's 80th MG Co (which doesn't conform to all reports either.

This is as I'am info by my Turkish mates,

"The book "Birinci Dünya Harbinde Türk Harbi........" no mention of any MG's being lost at Magdhaba. But states that 4th Army had 33 heavy MG's at the end of 1916 (Dec.28th)

p.439 :

31st R. in Han Yunus had 80th MG platoon. (31st Regt (with 31st MG Company) and platoon from 80th MG Company),

32nd R. in Hafirülavce had 67th, 79th, 137th MG Companies. (these MG companies Regt's are not part of the 3rd or 27th Div"s).

(brackets are mine)

Cheers

S.B

[jwsleser]

S.B.

I have been reading the discussion on the other forum. Tosun is provding some excellent information. He is using the same sources that I have available, plus several I don't have. As his Turkish is better than mine (he has been learning all his life :-)) I have sat quietly in the background reading the posts.

Jeff

[erickson]

Actual MGs in machine gun companies remained at 4 for the duration of the war. However, in 1917, all regimental MG companies were deactivated. Also at the same time, the 4th Company of ordinary infantry battalions was deactivated as well and a MG Company (of four guns) was added to each infantry battalion in place of the missing 4th company. Thus the authorizations of heavy MGs for Ottoman divisions went up from 12 to 36 in 1917 -- as occured in western divisions, infantry strength decreased while MG strength increased.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Thanks, this has thrown me a bit.

I surpose the first question why the suden mass incress in MG's from about 8 MG's to 36 MG's per Div, and were they all Maxims or a mix of Maxim and Bergmans?

When you say Western Div's do you mean where they are recruited or where there serving?

Do you have any idea of a date of this change, as most Div's serving in Palestine appear not to have done this or its had to confirm if they did untill 1918 some time?

Cheers

S.B

[erickson]

Hello,

When I said "Western divisions" - I meant German, British and French -- the authorized divisional infantry strength of all the major combatant decreased in 1917, and there were increases in MG authroizations. The same thing happened to the Turks

Ottoman infantry battalions in infantry divisions in Palestine lost their 4th Company on 28 June 1917 (leaving three coys). They were authorized to activate a machine gun company in place of the missing infantry compay on 1 August 1917.

These are authorizations --- actual MG company activations varied from battalion to battalion based on availability of guns and men. Same with the type of weapon --- it varied, and some battalions had heavy MGs while others had light MGs (some units were even equipped with captured Russian material in 1918).

Also a MG Company was authorized 3 officers, 6 NCOs, 57 men, 12 animals and four guns.