Kilt Pins

[Joe Sweeney]

Of the Regular Highland units three of the Regiments had kilts that were fastened by Kilt Pins.

The A&SH used a "Safety Pin" .

The Cameron Highlanders used a solid headed Brass pin.

The Royal Highlanders used a Glass headed pin.

I have an original A&SH safety pin, but do not know exactly what the other two looked like. I've had some very unofficial info that they were about 4 inches in length and very much akin to a hat pin, although a hat pins seems a bit thin for this purpose.

I also know that for the Camerons it took three pins to fasten the kilt (1909 Standing Orders).

Does anyone have any of these in a collection or have seen any?

Both the Gordons and Seaforths had kilts with leather straps although occasional one sees a kilt with a safety pin closing the lower part of the kilt.

Any help would be appreciated.

Joe Sweeney

[Graham Stewart]

I have a pair of R.Scots collar badges attached to a kilt pin, which would indicate possibly a member of the pipe band. They were bought fastened together years ago in a junk shop and have no reason to doubt that they shouldn't be together. If the opportunity arises I'll try and photo it for your reference.

Graham

[Joe Sweeney]

Graham,

Much appreciated thanks.

Joe

[Tom A McCluskey]

Joe,

Out of interest, the safety type pin that the Gordons wore, on the front of the kilt, is a Blanket Pin (and it is very often referred to as this). If you Google a Blanket Pin, you will see what I am on about:

http://www.wildmed.com/Merchant2/merchant....;Category_Code=

Although not an item of Black Watch dress, there are some pictures of the odd man in the 2nd Bn wearing blanket pins in their kilts whilst out in Mesopotamia. Maybe the dust devils lifted the front pane of the kilt, or it was an idea 'borrowed' whilst in the Highland Battalion (BW & Seaforths Composite Battalion).

Hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC

[Joe Sweeney]

Tom,

Thanks, those safety/blanket pins are fairly commonly seen in use by units where technically they should not be.

Any of those 2nd Bn BW photos show the straight pin?

Joe Sweeney

[tocemma]

Hi Joe,

Although these patterns existed I have rarely seen the 'full dress' style pins being worn with Service Dress. I have had many Great War kilts and complete uniforms to most of the Scottish Regiments you refer to but have never seen examples of these pins attached. Almost invariably they have been of the blanket pin style shown in the photograph.

I have a sgian dubh and kilt pin to Sgt Jack Turner, 5th Cameron Highlanders, and this is of the blanket pin type referred to but with the addition of a white metal thistle insignia of the 9th Division at the top. The top of the thistle is in a purple semi-precious stone. The blade of the sgian dubh is engraved with the owners 'name and Battalion, and has a matching purple stone to the hilt.

There are a bewildering number of Regimental and Battalion variations involved in Scottish kit and it would be a brave individual to state with certainty what was worn at any given point. Dated photos are obviously a help but even then sometimes difficult to interperet.

I have recently thinned out my collection a little and one of the items I parted with was a drab kilt, the only one I had seen in the 'flesh'. This had fewer pleats than a normal service kilt and although made in a tartan' fabric was much lighter in weight than a standard kilt. I have several photos of these being worn in the 'New Army' 14/15 period but they were very unpopular with the units they were issued to and were quickly withdrawn which probably expalins the rarity. The important point is that though the photos clearly show drab kilts, there are wide variations in the construction. Some had a full set of pleats and others as little as four pleats, Some have pockets attached rather like the cotton kilt covers and these were presumably intended to replace both the sporran and the kilt cover in walking out order. Like I've said a very poorly documented minefield!

I have an extensive collection of Scottish service dress headgear and will try to post some photos in due course when time permits.

regards

Paul

[Graham Stewart]

Paul,

Did you ever come across a "Sandbag tartan" kilt as worn by the Tyneside Scottish c.1917/18. These kilts replaced the previous individual battalion kilts worn since their formation and have a khaki/green tartan colour to them?

Graham.

[Graham Stewart]

Joe,

Had a look at Tom's link to the blanket pin and it would appear that my R.Scots kilt pin can also be described as "blanket pin". Do you still require a photo?

Graham.

[Joe Sweeney]

Joe,

Had a look at Tom's link to the blanket pin and it would appear that my R.Scots kilt pin can also be described as "blanket pin". Do you still require a photo?

Graham.

Graham,

Thanks but not at the moment. Both the Cameron and BW were supposedly straight pins.

I've seen quite a lot of modern straight kilt pins and was wondering how they compared to the QOCH and BW.

Thanks anyway

Joe Sweeney

[Tom A McCluskey]

Joe,

I am off to Scotland at the end of the week. I will see if I can get you a photo of BW kilt pins. They basically look like a hat pins.

Aye

Tom McC

[Joe Sweeney]

Tom,

Thank you very much that would be much appreciated.

take care,

Joe Sweeney

[Joe Sweeney]

Hi Joe,

Although these patterns existed I have rarely seen the 'full dress' style pins being worn with Service Dress. I have had many Great War kilts and complete uniforms to most of the Scottish Regiments you refer to but have never seen examples of these pins attached. Almost invariably they have been of the blanket pin style shown in the photograph.

I have a sgian dubh and kilt pin to Sgt Jack Turner, 5th Cameron Highlanders, and this is of the blanket pin type referred to but with the addition of a white metal thistle insignia of the 9th Division at the top. The top of the thistle is in a purple semi-precious stone. The blade of the sgian dubh is engraved with the owners 'name and Battalion, and has a matching purple stone to the hilt.

There are a bewildering number of Regimental and Battalion variations involved in Scottish kit and it would be a brave individual to state with certainty what was worn at any given point. Dated photos are obviously a help but even then sometimes difficult to interperet.

I have recently thinned out my collection a little and one of the items I parted with was a drab kilt, the only one I had seen in the 'flesh'. This had fewer pleats than a normal service kilt and although made in a tartan' fabric was much lighter in weight than a standard kilt. I have several photos of these being worn in the 'New Army' 14/15 period but they were very unpopular with the units they were issued to and were quickly withdrawn which probably expalins the rarity. The important point is that though the photos clearly show drab kilts, there are wide variations in the construction. Some had a full set of pleats and others as little as four pleats, Some have pockets attached rather like the cotton kilt covers and these were presumably intended to replace both the sporran and the kilt cover in walking out order. Like I've said a very poorly documented minefield!

I have an extensive collection of Scottish service dress headgear and will try to post some photos in due course when time permits.

regards

Paul

Hi Paul,

Almost missed your post. I would have loved to have seen that drab kilt. There were actually two or three patterns approved for the drab kilts and they turn up from time to time in post cards, but I've never seen one in the flesh. I can actually confirm the thin-ness of the drab Kilt material as a bit of inofo survives and it was much cheaper than actual tartan. A lot went to the Canadians. I believe the 7th Seaforth's, 10th BW and 12 A&SH got issued them (and lots of Canadians), I'd love to find if anyone has come across any other accounts or can pin-point to units that got them?

Funny thing on those drab kilts is that there is a lot surviving correspondence from 1906 on a proposal to do away with the Regimental pattern kilts with aprons for Service Dress and replace with a standard Drab Kilt for all Highland Battalions when wearing Service Dress--the proposal died.

Those kilt fasteners are a mystery to me. The safety blanket type are quite common, but not the others. I would hazard a guess that your line of reasoning is correct--what was acceptable for pre-war did not last long in France or elsewhere like shoes and spats etc.

I remember Turner's set going through Malcolm's shop about 10 years ago--couldn't afford the price tag at the time and reget not getting it given prices as they currently are. If I remember correctly he had a nice set of 5 Blue Overseas chevrons on his sleeve.

"Paul,

Did you ever come across a "Sandbag tartan" kilt as worn by the Tyneside Scottish c.1917/18. These kilts replaced the previous individual battalion kilts worn since their formation and have a khaki/green tartan colour to them?

Graham."

Graham,

Interesting bit. There are fairly accurate records of Kilts paternbs surviving in RACD records. However, so much was procured outside of system as to boggle the mind.

In fact the RACD did not procure any Kilts etc for the TF prior to the war. This was done solely through the TFA. What is interesting in the RACD records is that when the WO took over uniforming the TF in spring and summer of 1915 you can see an evolution of first the tartan itself being pattern sealed (if not already on inventory) such as Forbes and Hodden Grey and then the actually pattern sealing of the Kilts for the 10th Liverpool and 14th London. For TF units that such as the HLI (6 and 9th Bns) the tartan already existed in inventory so only the kilts themselves were pattern approved. I have a nice Kilt with a great paper label to the 6th HLI. The resaon why the HLI had to have new Kilts pattern sealed was that HLI Mckenzie (No5)Tartan is not the same as Seaforth Mckenzie (No. 2). The only way of telling the difference is getting a measuring tap out. This same process happened for the Canadian Highland units and the South Africans too.

But the Kilts for the NF never came through the RACD so no records there. The NF had an interesting kix to include my favorite the Houndstooth tartan.

Joe Sweeney

[ctb]

I have just taken delivery of a new kilt, in the Tyneside Scottish tartan, and now proudly where the badge as a kilt pin.

this is the tartan known as the Sandbag Tartan, and is now the District Tartan for the Tyneside area

[4thGordons]

Joe

I just looked though all my Gordon's pictures and over 75% of the wartime images where kilts are visible show a kilt pin (of the "Blanket pin" variety) worn.

Gordons appear to wear the pin pretty "High" typically the the top of the pin is about on a level with the bottom edge of the tunic.

I have one pic which I am 95% sure is a Gordon in a drab kilt, he does have a blanket pin on!

Chris

[Black Jock]

Joe

I just looked though all my Gordon's pictures and over 75% of the wartime images where kilts are visible show a kilt pin (of the "Blanket pin" variety) worn.

Gordons appear to wear the pin pretty "High" typically the the top of the pin is about on a level with the bottom edge of the tunic.

I have one pic which I am 95% sure is a Gordon in a drab kilt, he does have a blanket pin on!

Chris

The Black Watch kilt was held by two black headed hat pins. there were no buckles and and straps. In 1961 there was a mixture. When I had to change my kilt to a newer version I had the buckles and straps removed and used pins. The blanket pin appears to be a decoration

Tom

[pmaasz]

I think the last post is the nearest to the explanation, although more info would be useful. I had a friend who was an officer (National Service) in the Black Watch in the 1950s. His name was IMS (Ian)Robertson if he's out there. He told me that the kilt was not 'made up' but was a long length (12 feet?) of material that was wound round the waist and pleated and the only thing to hold it on was two straight pins pushed through the fabric on either side of the waist, levered backwards to tighten, then pushed through again to fix. Whether or not there was a blanket pin fastening the front flap I don't know.

[Lammy]

Waiting in the post for this pin. Hat pin? Or kilt fastening pin?

[mancpal]

Its a general service button mounted for use as a hatpin.

Simon

[o j kirby]

Hello,

I have two pairs of kilt pins. The first I will share was worn by a soldier in the 4th Seaforths who served during 1914-16 and returned to the UK to serve at home in the MGC and AOC. The long pin measures 98mm and the short one 67mm.

I hope this is of interest.

Owain.

[o j kirby]

...here are another pair of pins worn by a lad in the 6th Seaforth Highlanders, 1917-18. The long one is 93mm and the short is 72mm. His photo depicts him wearing the larger pin on his kilt.

Cheers,

Owain.

[Grovetown]

Here's my example minutely and finely engraved: Platoon Compn Xmas 1915.

Cheers,

GT.

 

[Lammy]

Now that is a nice Kilt pin. Still waiting for someone to show an example of one of these straight pins. That were used up until the 50's 60's

Edited 23 August , 2021 by Lammy

[mancpal]

Lammy, 

my mother has collected hat pins for almost 50 years. There are countless regimental buttons/badges utilised as hat pins as they were popular as a sweetheart gift in an era where hat pins were almost at their peak.

Please consider that the KILT pins shown above have no resemblance to the HAT pin you show. They have an element of safety (think any safety/nappy ) as opposed to a long sharp pin unsecured at the lower end which I'm certain wouldn't help any kilted soldier in the heat of battle, bombs and bullets claimed many thousands , stabbed in the leg by a hat pin is a different thing

It's a hat pin 

 

Simon

[Lammy]

I was referring to the original post by Joe. Also a few other mentions , of hat pin style fittings. I know mine is a hat pin , and bought as such. Im not trying to say it is a kilt pin , was just curious to see , if these were a common item? It is the first one I have seen, and for a couple of quid. Thought it was a bargain.

I already own a plain large , blanket pin.

Edited 24 August , 2021 by Lammy

[mancpal]

Sorry if I missed the point. My mother has a small few in her collection though in view of the 2000+ pins she has it seems nothing was safe from being mounted on a pin.

Simon