jim_davies Posted 5 January , 2003 Share Posted 5 January , 2003 I know this is a bit off topic being related to the Merchantile Marine, but hoped that some one might be able to point me in the right direction. What bravery/valour decorations might a seaman be awarded during the Great War. I've heard of Albert Medals but wondered if there were any other organisations. The reason I'm interested is that I'm gradually moving away from my mum's side of the family and starting to tackle the paternal ancestors. My grandfather and two brothers all served in the Merchantile Marine, and one, Thomas Hughes Davies may have been awarded a gallantry award of some description. Family oral history has him being sunk by a u-boat off the coast of Falmouth, getting picked up later that day only to suffer the same fate a couple of hours later (ie being sunk twice within 24 hours). During one of the attacks he apparently went below decks to help rescue injured members of the crew as the ship went down. I orginally thought the above was unlikely, but have read that most ships sunk in the war were within a short distance of the British/Irish mainland and with the sheer numbers being sunk, it was apparently not as uncommon as I thought to be attacked multiple times in a short period of time. Recently was given a copy of his obituary which indicates an award in addition to the BWM and M Marine Medal, but unfortunately doesn't say what or what for. After the war he remained at sea, and finally followed his younger brother to Canada where he prospered. Eventually Tom sold up and returned to Anglesey in the 1950s. Any information or leads on either Merchantile Marine or likley awards would be appreciated. Incidentially Tom is buried in Llanwenllyfo graveyard, Anglesey where there are two battlefield crosses. The information I have is they were those placed in Belguim for Major Ardunnel Neave, 16th Lancers who was the son of the local lord of the manor. Neave is recorded on the CWGC site as being interred at Ypres Town Cemetery, although my dad tells me the family shipped the body home in the 1920s. (Would this be likely ?) Regards, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 5 January , 2003 Share Posted 5 January , 2003 Jim It is very unlikely that the body would have been shipped home as it was contrary to all the regulations although a number of n-o-k did try. Bodies were occasionally repatriated from the UK but they were largely Canadians serving in the UK who died 1918 onwards and foreign nationals serving in Commonwealth units (ie Americans, French, Belgians) but even these were few in number. I presume the political/personal pressure from the 'foreign' sources was too great for the authorities to resist once the war was over The repatriation of bodies from overseas to the UK was stopped in mid-1915 and apart from the Unknown Soldiers returned to the UK, Australia and Canada, I can't think of a confirmed case of this happening (Happy to hear of one though!) after that date. Even before mid-1915 there are only a few cases of officers being returned as the n-o-k had to pay for it! I do know of one case though of an Australian being returned to his home country after mid-1915 but his body being lost at sea when the ship was sunk! On occassions sailors who died in action aboard ship were returned rather than being buried at sea (ie from Jutland, Zeebrugge etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor Dodd Posted 5 January , 2003 Share Posted 5 January , 2003 Have you tried the PRO I heard that the papers of the Merchant Navy had a photo of each man with them (anybody know anything about this ????) Conor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 5 January , 2003 Share Posted 5 January , 2003 The Mercantile Marine Medal 1914-18 was awarded in Bronze to all ranks of the Mercantile Marine who had under taken one or more voyages through a war or danger zone. 133,000 were issued. The riband, of green and red divided by a narrow central white stripe, represents the steaming lights of a ship underway. The obverse of the medal has the coinage head of George V and the reverse shows the bows of a steamship with a sailing ship in the background. In the forground is a sinking submarine. and in the exergue the inscription 'FOR WAR SERVICE MERCANTILE MARINE 1914-18' For gallanry/bravery awards you could explore the following: The Liverpool Shipwreck & Humane Society Medal (for life saving) The Shipwrecked Fishermen & mariners Royal Benevolent Society Medal (for life saving) The Royal Humane Society Medals (for life saving) Lloyd's Medal For Life Saving at Sea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 5 January , 2003 Share Posted 5 January , 2003 Further to my my last post. Awards of the BWM (and Mercantile Marine Medal) to men of the MN were made by The Board of Trade. The Board isued 96,854 BWMs. You might be interested to now that during the war the MN lost 7,759,090 tons of ships. To TBs, Cruisers etc. 442,702 tons To Submarines 6,635,059 tons To Mines 673,427 Tons and to Aircraft 7,912 tons Additionally the Fishing Fleet lost 71,625 Tons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 5 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2003 Thanks for the replies, Terry, I thought it seemed unlikely the body of Major Neave would have been returned, but wasn't sure. I guess its one of those stories that enter the local mythology. Conor and Hertiage Plus, I appreciate the leads with regard the groups that awarded medals, and I didn't realize that records were kept at the PRO. Just wondered how many ships all that tonnage equated to ? Thanks, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 6 January , 2003 Share Posted 6 January , 2003 Jim I'll do some digging and see what I can find out about the ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 6 January , 2003 Share Posted 6 January , 2003 "British Vessels Lost at Sea 1914-18 & 1939-45" gives full details of every loss - warships & merchant ships. Published by HMSO 1919 & 1947 - reprinted by Patrick Stephens 1988 According to this between 04.08.14 & 11.11.18 2479 merchant ships lost weighing 7,759,090 tons 14,287 lives lost To this can be added 675 fishing vessels lost weighing 71,765 tons 434 lives lost Ships 'Damaged or Molested' but not sunk 1,885 weighing 8,007,967 tons 592 lives lost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 6 January , 2003 Share Posted 6 January , 2003 Jim Add to the list of potential awards The Board of Trade Siver and Bronze Medals for Gallantry in life saving at sea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 6 January , 2003 Share Posted 6 January , 2003 Jim If he survived beyond 1918 then there is a chance that his service record survives (possibly with Photograph) Try these addresses, this one first as I think this is the one that actually has the records. The Southampton Archives Services Southampton City Council South Block Civic Centre Southampton S014 7LY Enclose £5 payment for the search, refundable if they don't have anything! And if not then try this one (but I'm sure they gave me the above address) Registry of Shipping and Seamen Anchor House Cheviot Close Llanishen Cardiff CF4 5JA I have tried the PRO and not had any success, they say they have the records but when you look they are not there. They do have something entitled "Seamen's Pouch's" that sound really interesting but these have been weeded and are very hit or miss. There is also these records http://catalogue.pro.gov.uk/ExternalReques...eference=ri2197 Merchant Seamen record of service 1913 -1972 The PRO claim these are there but I've not had much luck with the chaps that I've tried to research. Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 6 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 6 January , 2003 Thanks guys, You've given a lot to get going on. I'll let you know what I find. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 6 January , 2003 Share Posted 6 January , 2003 Jim The following WW1 wrecks located off the Cornish Coast in the general area of Falmouth have been identified by divers and/or surveys: SS ILSTON 2426 Tons Built 1915 for Swansea Steamers Torpedoed and sunk 30 April 1917 Wreck at Lat. 49 deg. 57 mins North - Long.5 deg 9 mins 36 secs W ay depth of 165 ft. In 1969 divers reported that the wreck was lying, intact, bows pointing SW. Cargo of railway equipment still in the holds and engines intact. ABMS* VOLNAY 4610 Tons Owners Gow Harrison & Co. Sunk 14 Dec. 1917 enroute from Montreal to Plymouth Wreck at Lat 50 deg.04.15 N - Long 5 deg 04.03 W at depth of 57 ft. In 1967 divers reported that the cargo of ammunition had been partly salvaged and that two boilers and the bows were intact. Some cargo strewn about the sea bed. ABMS ROSE HILL 2788 Tons Sunk 23 Sep. 1917 en route from Cardiff to Devonport Naval Base Survey by HMS Woodlark in 1966 showed that the wreck stands some 30 ft. high in 140 ft. of water at Lat. 50 DEG.15mins - Long 4 deg 41 min W Cargo - coal for RN ABMS ALMOND BRANCH 3461 Tons Built 1897 and previously known as SS ASHMORE Torpedoed and sunk 27 Nov. 1917 at Lat. 50 deg 14 min N - Long 4 deg 45 min W wreck never located En rout from London to South America via Port Talbot with a cargo of general goods. ABMS = ARMED BRITISH MERCHANT SHIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 7 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2003 Heritage, Thanks for all the input on this topic, I thought of writing to the local museum to see what archives they might hold. Do you know of any decent books which cover this subject ? I am also trying to track down the book Terry mentioned. Apparently after the second ship was sunk they were able to row to shore (not sure how long this took). All the best, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 7 January , 2003 Share Posted 7 January , 2003 Jim You might find this site helpful. www.port.nmm.ac.uk Click on Research Guides and look at Guide C9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 7 January , 2003 Share Posted 7 January , 2003 Jim For Lloyd's Medals see www.barnettresearch.freeserve.co.uk/gallantry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 7 January , 2003 Share Posted 7 January , 2003 Jim As I said the publisher of the book was Patrick Stephens which is part of the Haynes Group. Look under that name also in any booklist. I am not sure if it is still in print. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 8 January , 2003 Share Posted 8 January , 2003 Jim Cornwall Maritime Museum Bell's Corner Falmouth Tel: 01326 316745 Open Nov-Easter 10-3 (Not Sundays) Easter-Oct 10-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 9 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 9 January , 2003 Heritage Plus, Terry and Andrew, Thank you very much for all the help on this topic. It really has given me so much to go on. I was kind of expecting a very light response, and am stunned by the responses. It'll be really great if I'll actually find out something concrete about Tom, but if not I'm still learning so much about the whole period that just having a better understanding will be well worth the effort. Cheers, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt York Posted 9 January , 2003 Share Posted 9 January , 2003 In 1995 I wrote to the Registry of Shipping and Seamen at Cardiff with regards to a BWM I had, issued to a merchant seaman for service in the Great War. The man survived the war. They would not disclose any information on the man because I wasn't the next of kin. I'll try out the Southampton address in Andrew's post, I may strike lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 9 January , 2003 Share Posted 9 January , 2003 Jim Thanks for your comments. It just shows how valuable this forum is! Another point-of-contact: The main collection of Cornish Newspapers are held at: The Cornwall Library Service The Cornwall Centre Alma Place Redruth Cornwall These include Falmouth's local paper 'The Falmouth Packet ' See http db.cormwall.gov.uk/info/newspaper/asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 16 October , 2003 Share Posted 16 October , 2003 The Southampton Archives Services Southampton City Council South Block Civic Centre Southampton S014 7LY Did you have any luck with this address? I have just discovered, in 1920, newspaper notices calling for all those in Fiji who served in the Mercantile Marine to apply for their British Mercantile Marine Medal and British War medal. I have some men who served in the Mercantile Marine, and am wondering about contacting this address Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 17 October , 2003 Author Share Posted 17 October , 2003 Christine, The Southampton Archives were very helpful, with a response within two weeks(impressive considering I'm in the USA). The price was reasonable (something like 4 GBP, with an additional charge to have an enlarged scan instead of photocopy). They also sent an info packet that gave other locations of archives etc-can't find it right now (there's a surprise), but it's here somewhere. If I remember correctly they can search in one of two ways-any experts are please feel free to correct me Either by the man's name (which I used). They managed to search down Tom based on his name and town of birth. Or by a reference number (discharge number ?). Didn't have a clue about this.. The information provided was useful to me as it includes passport sized photo of the seaman. Other info included; MNS Region, Rating, Place & Date of Birth, Nationality (and nationality of father), physical info (pretty much the same as you would find on an attestation form). And six digit numbers with dates. I have been told these numbers relate to particular ships, and the dates relate to joining the crew. Haven't had much luck progressing too much farther-Tom got put on the back-burner for a while-but the re-emergence of this thread will change that. Only draw back for my research, the dates shown on the card (presumably for joining a ship) were after the war! Not sure if there's another card out there, as I'm 100% Tom served with the Merchant Marine during the war (per newspaper article, 1917), his obit. etc. Contact me off forum if you like to see how the card looks, and I can email a scan. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hussar Posted 17 October , 2003 Share Posted 17 October , 2003 Jim, British Vessels Lost at Sea usually dispatched within 1 to 2 working days Paperback - (April 1980) 184 pages -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Product details 1 Used available from Amazon Marketplace sellers! (How does Marketplace work?) Used - Items 1 to 1 of 1 £10.00 Seller: kennethhowells2 Seller rating: (Based on 140 ratings) Dispatched from: United Kingdom Comments: Good - Go to Amazon, books section and type 'british vessels lost at sea' into the search engine. There is only this paperback copy and one hardback at £85.00(!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Underwood Posted 21 October , 2003 Share Posted 21 October , 2003 Only draw back for my research, the dates shown on the card (presumably for joining a ship) were after the war! Not sure if there's another card out there, as I'm 100% Tom served with the Merchant Marine during the war (per newspaper article, 1917), his obit. etc. According to the PRO online brochures on researching Merchant Mariners, the specific WW1 records for seaman were destroyed in 1969. Quoted from the brochure. "The cards for 1913 to 1920 of the two main series BT 349 (CR 1) and BT 348 (CR 2) were destroyed in 1969. For 1913 to 1917 you should consult the Agreements and Crew Lists for the period, see the leaflet Agreements and Crew Lists after 1861. To do this you will need the name and the official number of the ship(s) on which the seaman served. Once you have the name of the vessel(s) you can obtain the official number(s) by either consulting copies of the Merchant Navy List or Lloyd's Registers. The PRO has a partial collection of both these series. The National Maritime Museum holds a complete set of the Lloyd's Registers. For 1918 to 1921 the gap is filled by the CR 10 cards in BT 350 see below. The BT 350 Cards mentioned above are what I think you already have from Southhampton Archives. My grandfather served with the Merchant Navy in the war, but on armed auxiaries, and I had given up hope of finding his records, but I may contact the Southampton Archives, to find out once and for all whether they have been destroyed or not. I'm not sure if you need these links to the online PRO brochures, but here they are: Merchant Seamen: Sea Service Records 1913-1972 Merchant Seamen: Medals and Honours Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 22 October , 2003 Author Share Posted 22 October , 2003 Hussar-thanks for the book item-little out of my price range right now, but I'll see if our library can get a copy. Ian-Thanks for the PRO ideas. I wonder if I use the ship numbers on the CR10 (at least that's what I think I have) would be the work, as I'm not sure which ships he sailed on. I'm back in the UK next month, and although time will be a little tight, a first trip to the PRO/NA might be in order. I would definity recommend contacting the Southampton folks for info on your grandfather, they were really helpful and efficient. Going through some of the info from the MCA (Maritime & Coastguard Agency) I've come across reference to the following series of records at the PRO which may be of help to you: Roll of Honour 1914-18 BT 339. (also includes nominal lists) Medal Rolls (WW1). BT 351 Seamen's "Pouches". BT 372 Thanks again (and good luck, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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