sitush Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 Is there any significance to be attached to CWGC headstones which are joined together - I've seen doubles and even a triple - rather than being the usual single stone per man? Without having actually done the research, the names on these conjoined stones do not seem to indicate a family relationship (ie: surnames are different). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 I think touching headstones means a mass grave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitush Posted 7 December , 2006 Author Share Posted 7 December , 2006 I think touching headstones means a mass grave. Thanks. I wondered whether that might be it, as in "body parts can't be individually identified but we know who they are". I'd veered away from it because I'm sure I've seen such a group in the graveyard of the "MArble Church" at Bodelwyddan, N Wales, which relates to Canadians who died of flu while awaiting embarkation back home in 1919. Since there are other single headstones there which also relate to the flu epidemic's impact on Kinmel Camp I discarded the idea. I'll check when I'm passing in a couple of weeks' time. Probably I've recalled incorrectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Incomer Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 Hi, I agree,I,m sure that there are touching headstones at the Marble Church. Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 I'm sure I've seen such a group in the graveyard of the "MArble Church" at Bodelwyddan, N Wales, which relates to Canadians who died of flu while awaiting embarkation back home in 1919. Since there are other single headstones there which also relate to the flu epidemic's impact on Kinmel Camp I discarded the idea. The Bodelwyddan joined headstones are nothing to do with the Canadians nor, if you check the dates, have they anything to do with the flu epidemic. Neither are they anything to do with family relationships, mass graves or graves where the body parts can't be individually identified.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 Adjoining Headstones usually indicate a Mass Burial as at Heilly Station,or if More than one Name on a Headstone,this can indicate that the Remains of the Dead were unable to be Seperated or identified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 Dave, I'm intrigued by the headstones you featured. I have never seen a 3-man one-piece stone like it before. Can you tell me more about the history and of the boys who are commemorated there? (and in no way am I being sarcastic ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 There is a similar stone in St Peter's Thanet with Royal Berkshire Regiment, Royal Naval Air Service and Royal Defence Corps burials so we can also discount them being buried together due to them being in the same Regiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Bagshaw Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 Derek, I have seen and have photos of 4 stones like the 3 but obviously with one extra. They look really weird. The 4 is in Nottingham, will see if i can dig out the photo!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 Dave, I'm intrigued by the headstones you featured. I have never seen a 3-man one-piece stone like it before. Can you tell me more about the history and of the boys who are commemorated there? The thing is, there's nothing really spectacular about them. They were simply buried in the same plot at different times, possibly side by side rather than "double stacked". They were all individual soldiers from different backgrounds (eg, Budd, Prossler and Owen in the above photo were from Angelsey, Swansea and Devon (not in that order)) who all died locally (in Kinmel Camp or the local hospitals in this case) of varying causes. Whether it's just a "space saving" thing, or an experiment by the CWGC, I don't know. I have been told of one similar headstone outside of the UK, but the only others I've heard of are in the UK. Here's another shot, showing more of the same... Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Bagshaw Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 Derek, I've found it but it's too large to pst. If you want to see it PM me your email address. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Saillard Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 The majority of First and Second World War burials on Malta are of the multiple type - usually three to a grave, although there are a few with more. These are entirely covered by one large horizintal slab of stone that bears an inscription for each burial therein. The servicemen in each grave are, for the large part, from various regiments and passed away on different dates. This proceedure resulted from lack of space and the difficulty in excavating them due to the rocky nature of the island. The triple burial specimen below is for a member each of the Border Regiment (died 26 July 1915); Australian Infantry (died 24 July 1915); and New Zealand Infantry (died 23 July 1915). Regards Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitush Posted 7 December , 2006 Author Share Posted 7 December , 2006 Wayne, the design of the stone in your picture makes complete sense with your explanation (& I've found other comments on other sites regarding this state of affairs in Malta and, allegedly, other parts of the world). There are certainly other examples in the UK. Interesting. Excavation is not a major issue at Bodelwyddan, although it would be in my garden about 3 miles away. Nor, as far as I can see, was space at a premium. There is a Falklands war grave in the vicinity & if space were an issue then the saving to be made by adopting a vertical naming solution, rather than horizontal, would surely have been preferable? Although this might have met with other objections because the height of either the stone or the lettering would probably have to be altered. There are plenty of newer headstones in that section of the graveyard. Croonaert, I misunderstood your intention (if you knew, why not say at the time was my thought) and you misunderstood mine (which was not sarcasm). Water under the bridge, eh? I'll email CWGC about it as there seem to be a divergence of knowledge here. Might try Julian Putkowski also, even though they are not Canadians! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 There is a Falklands war grave in the vicinity & if space were an issue then the saving to be made by adopting a vertical naming solution, rather than horizontal, would surely have been preferable? Antony Burke's grave isn't actually a war grave though - it's a private headstone done in a similar style to the war graves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 Might be of interest to someone... Sir Galahad (L3005) was the name of a LSL (landing ship logistic) belonging to the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. She was a 3,270 ton LSL built by Stephens and launched in 1966. She could carry 340 troops comfortably or 534 in austere conditions. Beaching cargo capacity was 340 tons, and could include 16 tanks, 34 mixed vehicles, 120 tons of petroleum produce and 30 tons of ammunition. Landing craft could be carried in place of lifeboats, but unloading was mainly handled by three cranes. On May 24, 1982 in San Carlos Water she was attacked by A-4Bs of the Argentine Air Force (FAA) and was hit by one 1000 pound bomb which did not detonate and strafed in a following wave of attack aircraft. On June 8 in Bluff Cove together with Sir Tristram she was hit again by two or three bombs and was very badly damaged, she was involved in unloading soldiers from the 1st Welsh Guards and 48 soldiers and sailors were killed in the explosions and subsequent fire. Later the hulk was towed out to sea and sunk by HMS Onyx (S21); it is now an official war grave, designated as a protected place under the Protection of Military Remains Act. The casualties (dead) of the Sir Galahad were as follows... Royal Fleet Auxiliary Electric Fitter Leung Chau 3rd Engineering Officer Christopher F. Hailwood 2nd Engineering Officer Paul A. Henry, G.M. 3rd Engineering Officer Andrew J. Morris Butcher Sung Yuk Pai 1st Battalion, Welsh Guards Lance Corporal Anthony Burke Lance Sergeant Jim R. Carlyle Guardsman Ian A. Dale Guardsman Michael J. Dunphy Guardsman Peter Edwards Sergeant Clifford Elley Guardsman Mark Gibby Guardsman Glenn C. Grace Guardsman Paul Green Guardsman Gareth M. Griffiths Guardsman Denis N. Hughes Guardsman Gareth Hughes Guardsman Brian Jasper Guardsman Anthony Keeble Lance Sergeant Kevin Keoghane Guardsman Michael J. Marks Guardsman Christopher Mordecai Lance Corporal Stephen J. Newbury Guardsman Gareth D. Nicholson Guardsman Colin C. Parsons Guardsman Eirwyn J. Phillips Guardsman Gareth W. Poole Guardsman Nigel A. Rowberry Lance Corporal Philip A. Sweet Guardsman Glyn K. Thomas Lance Corporal Nicholas D. M. Thomas Guardsman Raymond G. Thomas Guardsman Andrew Walker Lance Corporal Christopher F. Ward Guardsman James F. Weaver Sergeant Malcolm Wigley Guardsman David R. Williams Army Catering Corps Lance Corporal Barry C. Bullers Private Albert M. Connett Private Michael L. Jones Private Richard W. Middlewick Royal Army Medical Corps Lance Corporal Ian R. Farrell Major Roger Nutbeem Private Ken Preston 9 Independent Parachute Squadron, Royal Engineers Corporal Andrew G. McIlvenny Sapper Wayne D. Tarbard Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers Craftsman Mark W. Rollins Lance Corporal Anthony R. Streatfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 ...inside St.Margaret's Church... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 Antony Burke's grave isn't actually a war grave though - it's a private headstone done in a similar style to the war graves... ...as opposed to the other non-wargrave military headstones in there which I think (?) might be cared for by the CWGC... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 I remember seeing Antony Burke's grave about 20 years ago, just after the Falklands War. Myself and my dad came across it by accident. I assume that Anthony was bought back to the UK and died of wounds or was it the British government's policy to repatriate the dead to the UK? Liam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 was it the British government's policy to repatriate the dead to the UK? Generally (as now), yes. If you notice L/Cpl Burke's date of death you can see that he died down south on the day of the attack on the Sir Galahad. As it states on his headstone -he was "Killed in Action". dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Miller Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 Dave, YOur Falklands posts are really moving - a good idea to list the casualties, it's hit home like it's never done before. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 7 December , 2006 Share Posted 7 December , 2006 Dave, YOur Falklands posts are really moving - a good idea to list the casualties, it's hit home like it's never done before. Jon. Thanks Jon. Corporal Andy McIlvenny (9 Sqn RE) who also died that day was a "mate of a mate". I never knew him, but was forced to abuse my liver to his memory (and to the others of 9 Sqn who died in '82) at the Airborne forces weekend a couple of years back! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 8 December , 2006 Share Posted 8 December , 2006 The casualties (dead) of the Sir Galahad were as follows... Royal Fleet Auxiliary.... ...2nd Engineering Officer Paul A. Henry, G.M. Thought it might be of interest to someone to see Paul Henry's G.M. citation for that day... MONDAY, 11th OCTOBER 1982 MINISTRY OF DEFENCE HONOURS AND AWARDS NAVY DEPARTMENT The QUEEN has been graciously pleased to approve the Posthumous award of the George Medal to the undermentioned in recognition of gallant and distinguished service during the operations in the South Atlantic: George Medal Second Engineer Officer Paul Anderson HENRY, Royal Fleet Auxiliary On 8th June, 1982, after RFA SIR GALAHAD had been bombed by Argentine aircraft during troop disembarkation in Fitzroy Creek, the Engine Room compartments quickly filled with thick black smoke. Second Engineer Officer Henry and Third Engineer Officer Hailwood were present in the Main Control Room. A junior Engineer Officer was at the after end of the Engine Room and had to fight his way back through thick smoke to the Main Control Room area. Second Engineer Officer Henry then told the Junior Engineer Officer to take the breathing apparatus and set and get out of the Engine Room when they would follow. By this unselfish and courageous act, he saved the Junior Officer's life, at the same time sacrificing his own. The Junior Officer managed to reach safety, but both Second Engineer Officer Henry and Third Engineer Officer Hailwood perished. Second Engineer Officer Henry's act will stand proudly in the annals of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary Service. dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 8 December , 2006 Share Posted 8 December , 2006 According to CWGC the double and triple width headstones in the UK were experimental designs and have no special significance in themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 8 December , 2006 Share Posted 8 December , 2006 I assume that Anthony was bought back to the UK and died of wounds or was it the British government's policy to repatriate the dead to the UK? The British government's policy was NOT to repatriate war dead between mid-1915 and 1982 although a few post-WW2 casualties were repatriated. Prior to 1915 repatriation was permitted at the relatives' expense. When the Falklands War was over, the MoD gave the relatives the choice of leaving their loved ones in the Falklands or having them returned. Some chose to leave them down south and others did not. Since that time, causalties have been repatriated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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