Blue Max -- Movie

[dosborne]

Hi All

I started a thread a while ago relating to WWI movies ( I was specifically asking for recommendations) Based on the thread replies, I have ordered a few of those mentioned and the first to arrive was "The Blue Max".

The second time I ran the DVD (Armed with Janes WWI Aircraft manual) I tried to identify the aircraft that were being used (portrayed). Most of the show, George Peppard is flying an aircraft that I am struggling to identify -- Is it a Pfalz ? The other aircraft Fokker D1, SE5's etc were pretty easy to identify. Also near the end of the movie (The one our hero is killed in) he flies a Fokker DV111 ?

Next question -- I seem to recall reading that the no of aircraft one needed to shoot down to be awarded the Blue max, steadily increased as the war progressed -- The movie shows 20 in 1918 -- Is this historically correct ?

Any inaccuracies in the movie that anybody can comment on ?

Thanks

Dave

[rainbase]

Hi dave,

I'm working from memory, but have read a bit over the years about the aircraft used in this movie. Of course they are all replicas, but some certainly look more authentic than others.

Stachel begins his tenure in the squadron flying a Pfalz. I always thought this one looked so cool ! I seem to rememer reading that the Fokker DVIIs were built (by a french firm?) for the film but were so underpowered they were miserable to fly. There are also the Fokker Dr1's; three examples in the movie. The SE5's look ok (except when you see the rounded wings). I think these were maybe.... Gypsy Moths dressed up? Lastly, the Monoplane Stachel kills himself in at the end is some type of Morane-Saulnier, possibly an A1.

I'm sure the real experts will weigh in here pretty quickly. Like I said, i' working off memory. Hope it helps a bit.

Peace,

Jan G.

[Paul Hederer]

Heya Dave,

I'm a big fan of "The Blue Max," not the movie as much as the book (Jack Hunter). If you haven't had the chance I'd say read it--the story is much better than the movie, which diverges from the book on many points.

Frank Tallman (hope I have the spelling right) wrote a book about his experiences in hollywood, including working on the Blue Max. He did mention the DVII's were so underpowered that they could only use them for taxiing scenes.

I've read also that George P. was so enthusiastic about his role and flying that he took lessons and wanted to do some of the flying in the movie--I'm not sure if he actually did.

Paul

[Gibbo]

Here's a link to the IMDB entry for the Blue Max

The Trivia section says that Peppard did do some of his own flying. The Goofs section gives some errors, both factual & continuity. It claims that the Blue Max was initially awarded after 8 kills, later raised to 16 & never for 20. Wikipedia agrees on 8 at first & later 16 but says that it was approximately 30 by the end of the war. However, I thought that, whilst most pilots over a certain score, which rose during the war, won the Blue Max, it was a myth that it was automatically awarded for a particular number of kills.

[Martin Bennitt]

The goofs bit is interesting but not sure whether this is an error. Weren't they actually cocking the guns, rather than firing them?

cheers Martin B

Factual errors: Shows pilots firing their machine guns by reaching out and pulling back triggers on the guns themselves (in at least one scene, a pilot is shown with both hands on the guns, which of course means he is not flying his airplane). In fact, the guns were fired by levers located on the aircraft's joystick, allowing the pilot to fly and fire simultaneously.

[Paul Hederer]

German uniforms--

Stachel comes from the infantry, then appears at his flying assignment wearing a cavalry uniform--I'm sure taken straight from the photos of the Red Baron.

I noticed that many of the less exciting characters are relegated to wearing the standard uniform.

Use of the Dr1's as the plane of choice:

No German pilot in their right mind would have swapped a DVII for a DRI in 1918!

Paul

[squirrel]

Stick between the knees and use both hands to free a jam?

Tiger Moths (with bits bolted on) used for Fokker DV11's.

The senior General, James Mason, was wearing a WW2 Defence Medal ribbon among his collection.

Rate of fire of the various aircraft guns was a bit "iffy" in places too.

[dosborne]

WOW -- Once again I am bowled over by the tech knowledge of the forum members (The "Goofs" link provided has given me a good reason to watch the movie for a 6th time to spot the mistakes !)

Quick question -- I always understood that many of of German pilots began there careers in the armed forces as cavalry officers, and as a result of this their uniforms closley resembled the cavalry units -- I can't remember where / why I gained this impression -- is there any grain of truth in my "assumption" ?

The goof site stated "Anachronisms: The Iron Cross national insignia on the German aircraft were incorrect for that period of World War One" -- Huh ? What was wrong with the emblem ?

OK -- Another question(s) -- I assume the machine guns were belt fed . If so where were the rounds fed from and did the pilots keep spare ammo to refeed the guns -- Incidentally, how many rounds was the average fighter aircraft equipped with ?

Anyhow please excuse all the "newbie" questions -- Thanks for all the feedback

Dave

[Dolphin]

Dave

Some answers to your questions are as follows.

There was no distinct uniform for German Army aviation officers - they wore the uniform of their previous regiment, so some were cavalry, some infantry, some artillery, etc.

The aircraft in the movie are marked with the Iron Cross insignia used up to March 1918, when it was changed to a straight-sided cross, the Balkenkreuz (it was felt that, at a distance, the arms of the Iron Cross tended to blend together and resemble a circular marking similar to the roundels used by the Allies). As the bulk of the movie is set post-March 1918, the aeroplanes should have been marked with the Balkenkreuz but the film company decided that the Iron Cross looked better, and was more recognisable at a 'First World War marking'.

The ammunition belts for the machine guns were in panniers underneath the guns; generally around 500 rounds per gun were carried. There wasn't any extra ammunition.

I don't know much about post-War aircraft, but I think that the aeroplane in which the hero dies is a French Morane-Saulnier MS 230 variant from the late 1920s/early 1930s.

Regards

Gareth

[dosborne]

Thks a million Gareth

Regards

Dave

[stan]

The SE5's were Belgian Stampes.

[asdarley]

WOW -- Once again I am bowled over by the tech knowledge of the forum members (The "Goofs" link provided has given me a good reason to watch the movie for a 6th time to spot the mistakes !)

Quick question -- I always understood that many of of German pilots began there careers in the armed forces as cavalry officers, and as a result of this their uniforms closley resembled the cavalry units -- I can't remember where / why I gained this impression -- is there any grain of truth in my "assumption" ?

Anyhow please excuse all the "newbie" questions -- Thanks for all the feedback

Dave

Hi Dave

Re the cavalry uniforms. Many pilots on both sides came from mounted units. In fact this was considered at the time to confer a distinct advantage...riding a horse was considered good training to become a pilot!!

[LowNslow]

Hi there,

The aerial units for the Blue Max movie and a lot of the airfield bombing sequences were shot at Weston and Baldonnel in Southern Ireland.

Charles Boddington, who was sadly killed making a later movie was one of the pilots and these are one or two pictures he took during the filming. His son Matthew and I are currently rebuilding a BE-2 replica built for another move (see www.biggles-biplane.com)

While there were a number of Tiger Moths and Stampes used during the filming, they were mainly used in the background and a lot of old Tiger Moth fuselages were blown up and burned during the bombing sequences. The SE5 in the picture below appears to be Stampe based.

Some quite good replicas were built by among others, Slingsby in Yorkshire and Viv Bellamy at Lands End. Those that are known to survive include the Pfalz which is in the Fleet Air Arm Museum at Yeovilton and its stablemate now at Rhinebeck in New York State.

The Yeovilton example used a Tiger Moth fuselage under the wood skin and apparently actually flew better than the Bellamy example which more realistically had a wooden monocoque fuselage like the original. A friend who has flown the aeroplane in the States refers to it as "the bendy Pfalz"!

I'm quite surprised at the comment made about the replicas being underpowered. Certainly the SE5s seem to have flown OK with their 130hp Gipsy Major engines and I can't imagine that the Fokker DVIIs with 200hp Gispy Queens (out of old DH Rapides!) would be sluggish!

The one exception to that may have been the two-seater which was a modified 1930s Caudron Luciole. One pilot described as "OK as a Luciole, but lousy as an aeroplane"!

Hope this adds a bit of background - great movie isn't it!

Steve

[LowNslow]

Oh by the way. The Monoplane at the end of the movie was a 1930s/40s Morane Saulnier MS.230

George Peppard bought it after the movie finished shooting and it wound up in a museum in San Diego, California. It appeared for sale on e-bay last year!!

[stan]

Those that are known to survive include the Pfalz which is in the Fleet Air Arm Museum at Yeovilton and its stablemate now at Rhinebeck in New York State.Steve

The Bellamy one is actually now in NZ and owned by Peter Jackson. It can be seen performing at the Classic Fighters extravaganza.

http://www.classicfighters.co.nz/ac/ww1.shtml

cheers

[museumtom]

The 'armies' in the film were played by the FCA ( part time soldiers and nicknamed the Free Clothes Association from the initials) and the Irish regular army (The PDF). If you look closely you will see an aerial shot of the Germans attacking the British you can see that the British have the No 4 Lee enfield with the No 9 Bayonet which was standard issue to the FCA at the time and the Germans had the SMLE No1 Mark 3 Lee Enfield with the 1907 pat bayonet, standard issue for ww1 but for the British not the Germans.

Am I a saddo or what for noticing that?

Regards.

Tom.

[Martin Bennitt]

IIRC, all the Japanese troops in Bridge over the River Kwai are armed with SMLEs, but I suppose they could have been captured.

cheers Martin B

[John Gilinsky]

While there is much talk above of the technical stuff what about the acting and the social history portrayed in the film? A collapsing country's meager attempts to maintain home front morale through a fake wounded war hero; the brilliant new technology that will help to stabilize or materially slow down the Allied onslaught, the working class hero who has made good,etc.... The deliberate sacrifice of Peppard's character shows just how expendable everyone was during the war where the ends meant everything and the means nothing.

John

[Paul Hederer]

While there is much talk above of the technical stuff what about the acting and the social history portrayed in the film? A collapsing country's meager attempts to maintain home front morale through a fake wounded war hero; the brilliant new technology that will help to stabilize or materially slow down the Allied onslaught, the working class hero who has made good,etc.... The deliberate sacrifice of Peppard's character shows just how expendable everyone was during the war where the ends meant everything and the means nothing.

John

John,

What I find interesting is what the producers felt they had to do with the story-line to make a good book into the movie that is The Blue Max. Almost every major point in the movie runs contrary to the book--which is, by the way, hands-down the better story. The book delves very deeply into Stachel's rather fascinating character.

The sequel "The Blood Order," isn't too bad either. The third book in the series "The Tin Cravat," is so-so. You could read only the first two and not miss out.

Jack Hunter has his own website which is interesting:

Jack Hunter

Paul

[squirrel]

Agree with you Paul, the book is much better than the film.

[Paul Hederer]

Agree with you Paul, the book is much better than the film.

I see they came out with an illustrated version a bit back--looks like a likely last-minute present for me'self.

Paul

[Guest The Blue Max]

Hi All

Ok here goes as this is my first post here, was dirrected here by LowNSlow, have read the replies and thought i would put a few facts straight.

The Aircraft the were used in The Blue Max and several films afterwards are close to my heart, my father Charles Boddington was involved in flying them for many of the films that were made in ireland at that time. The A/C used consisted of a few specialy made Replica's and a few Tiger Moths, Stampe's etc filling in in the background. The replica's constructed for the film were as follows.

Two Fokker DR1,s ( not Three) these were built in Germany by Joseph Bitz from original drawings and were powered by Siemens Radial engines, i still have a copy of the drawings. One of these still exists and is owned by Rob Lamplough in the UK, it recently took to the silver screen in the movie Flyboys, the wereobouts of the second i do not know, if anyone does then i would love to hear from you.

Three Fokker DVII's built by Rousseau's in france, again based on original drawings and powered by Gipsy Queen In line engines, they were certainly a litle slugish but once airborne flew fine. Two are known to exist, one with the Stampe museum in Antwerp and sadley no longer flying and the other is with Javier Arango's collection in Californiaand is still airworthy The third is i know not where, if any one does i would love to hear from you.

Two Pfalz DIII's One built by the Hampshire Aeroplane company under the Guidence of Viv Bellamy, this one was designed by Ray Hillborne and followed the original contstuction technique of a Wooden moulded fuslage, it was powered by a Gipsy Major engine and was known as the "Rubber Pfalz" because of the way the Fuselage flexed in flight. The A/C is now flying in New Zealand with Peter Jackson's( he of Lord of the Rings Fame) Omaka collection.

The second was built by Doug Bianchi at Booker, this one was again powered by a Gipsy Major engine but was constucted around a Tiger Moth steel tube fuselage. The flyins characteristics if this A/C were far better than the wooden A/C and is the one you see most of in the film. This A/c survuves and is currently airworthy with Javier Arango in California.

Two full Size SE5's built by FG Miles at Shorham, these were built from original fuselages but featured steel tube fuselages and Gipsy Queen engines. Both of these two A/C were lost in accident's whilst filming other films. The first was lost durring the filming of "Zepperlin" when it collided with the camera helicopter. The second was lost when it spun in durring a low level dogfight whilst filming "Von Richtofen and Brown" this is the crash that claimed my father's life.

The other A/C used were two Caudron lucioles, the two seater shot down by Stachel!!

Several Tiger Moths and Stampes and the Morane Monaplane at the end of the film.

LowNslow has already posted a few of dads pics talken durring filminf in Ireland. Hope this clears of few things up.

[Paul Hederer]

Blue,

Great post! It's interesting what you write about the DVII's. I don't have Frank Tallman's book here at the moment, so I can't look up the passage. Strange, I can remember him clearly writing about a problem with the engine power and weight in relation to the size of the propellors on the machines. Perhaps it was solved by using another propellor.

Paul

[LowNslow]

There you go. From "the horse's mouth" as they say!

Now, where are those missing DR1 and DVII replicas!!!!