War Memorials

[Terry_Reeves]

I came across this recently in Hansard Oct 1997 Column WA 229

WAR MEMORIALS IN DISUSED CHURCHES

"Under the Pastoral Measure 1983, if a disused Church of England Church and churchyard is made the subject of a redudancy scheme, there is a requirement to give notice of the manner in which memorials are proposed to be disposed of and to offer the relatives or the Commonwealth War Graves Commisssion the opportunity to make separate arrangements.

Where the memorials are removed, details, including a copy of the inscription and the date and manner of disposal, are to be lodged with the local council and copied to the Registrar General."

I wonder if anybody else is aware of this legislation and has tested the system?

Terry Reeves

[Terry Denham]

I know of at least one churchyard in Sussex which has been transferred to the local authority under this scheme and there is another one only a mile or so from where I live up for sale at the moment which will come under these rules (It has two war graves).

Also, there is yet another now in private use where the new owners maintain the churchyard and especially look after the war graves by agreement.

I believe the term 'memorial' in the legislation refers to headstones rather than commemorative plaques within the building.

[Terry_Reeves]

Terry

Thanks for the reply. The same thought had crossed my mind however I have now found a Home Office document "War memorials: A Code of Practice for Custodians" which clearly states that the legislation also applys to war memorials as well. In a note about the Churchof England it says "The (Pastoral) Measure does not differentiate between memorials to single individuals and war memorials containing many names..."

The point about this is that it seems that local councils and the Registrar General should have a list of names for men who appeared on these "lost memorials" in the cases where they have been removed, which would be of interest to families and researchers.

Terr Reeves

[Terry Denham]

It would seem so. I had assumed that the legislation applied to open air war memorials as well

I have a friend who is a senior official in a Sussex council and knows chapter & verse about this legislation. He was the first to tell me about it and, indeed, he is in charge of some of these redundant churchyards as a result.

I'll ask him about the list of names etc and see what their provision for this is. Of course, this would only come into effect if the memorials are actually removed which they have not been in the cases personally known to me. In the example I mentioned of the churchyard being taken over by the council, the church is still in CofE use proving that the burial ground and the building can be dealt with seperately.

However, memorials are sometimes cleared as evidenced by the number of 'Alternative Commemorations' in UK cemeteries where CWGC have had to substitute an alternative headstone for one in the actual burial place.

I'll let you know what I discover from my friend about the actual practice relating to this legislation.

[Myrtle]

Terry & Terry

I was interested to read your postings. About a year ago I was trying to trace a War Memorial that had been situated in a Hospital near Cardiff. I contacted many organisations and found that the hospital had been pulled down and replaced with a housing estate. When I spoke with the Council they had no idea of the existence of the Memorial and could only conclude that it had been destroyed.

Do you know if the legislation that you mention extends beyond CofE buildings ?

Regards

Myrtle

[Terry Denham]

The measure only applies to CofE.

A full copy of the legislation is viewable at

www.exeter.anglican.org/handbook/ministry/pastoralmeasure83.rtf

I have not had time to read it yet as it looks a weighty piece!

[Steve_McGarry]

Another source of ref is the FOWM site (Friends of War Memorials) ... http://www.war-memorials.com

Quote

Under the War Memorials (Local Authorities Powers) Act of 1923, (amended 1948), local

councils are empowered to carry out maintenance, repair and protection of war memorials in their

area, whether vested in them or not and to incur reasonable expenditure for this purpose. Local

councils are also empowered to correct any error or omission in the inscription on any such

memorial. This legislation is permissive rather than conferring any obligation on the

council though.

The reality though is probably that a developer goes in bulldozes the site and builds whatever he wants... and the memorial goes in the skip...! I tried to find the memorial of my old school... It had about 50 names on it... All that remains of it is a photo... no one even know when it was removed... FOWM are alway looking for regional volunteers to be their eyes and ears.

[Terry Denham]

Steve

As a local councillor I had our local war memorial renovated & had eight new names added in 2001.

We actually own this memorial but, as you say, local authorities have the power to do this to any memorial (with the owner's permission) but often lack the will or the cash.

[Tom Morgan]

An interesting thread.

I remember hearing of one war memorial, originally from a church, being offered for sale in a junk shop, along with some of the pews.

There's a church not far from me which closed for worship some years ago and is now run as a sort of indoor craft market. Just next to the door as you go in is a beautiful war memorial - one of those big wall-mounted ones. It had various posters and things stuck on it last time I was there.

Sad to think that someone must once have checked that all the "valuable" stuff had been removed from the church before locking the doors for the last time and handing the keys over to the new owner without giving the war memorial a thought.

[Terry_Reeves]

Tom

According to the Home Office document, in Church of England churches, the decision about war memorials is taken by the bishop after consultation with with his Diocesan Advisory Committee. It goes on to say that the bishop will often direct that the memorial should remain in situ.

Where monuments or memorials remain in a redundant church "the new owner will be prohibited by covenant from removing or disturbing them without prior approval of the relevant church authorities."

This might explain the one in your former church.

Terry Reeves

[Terry Denham]

As promised I had a few words on this subject with my council friend (over a few beers tonight) and he confirmed that when a churchyard is taken over under these regulations the council assumes full responsibility for maintenance of headstones and war memorials. A private purchaser would certainly have to do the same.

He personally looks after three such sites but none have been cleared of headstones so no inscriptions have been recorded. However, he said that he was involved in clearances with a former council employer and that inscriptions were duly recorded - thus confirming that a central source remains for these sites.

Interestingly, he also said that he has just been involved with the clearance of a small churchyard (no war graves involved) where all bodies were exhumed and re-interred elsewhere. Again, he confirmed that full records were kept of headstones etc.