Excavations near St Jan.

[Simon Furnell]

Evening all.

I noticed an article today in the Daily Mail,entitled"A Heros Last Stand",concerning the dig around St Jan and the the story of L/Cpl William Storey of the 5th Northumberland Fusiliers.

The article is a little confusing,in the middle,but it seems that they are pretty sure, that the Fusilier that they have found,is this man.

Does anyone know any more on this subject?

Regards.

Simon.

[Aurel Sercu]

Simon,

See thread "Five old soldiers found".

Thread started by Dawson.

Chit-chat, page 3 now.

Aurel

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Simon

Also look at tread on Battlefields in Danger under Pilkem Road Motorway (I think).

I think the papers are jumping the gun on this.

A/L/Cpl. William Storey was killed on 26.10.17 according to a post on this forum (I have not checked with SD). I believe the 5th Northumberland Fus. took part in an attack near Houthulst Forest on 26.10.17, some distance from St Jan area were digging is taking place. Now the 5th Northumberland Fus. were sent to support the 4th Div. on 25th or 26th May 1915 and were split between the battalions holding the line between Turco and Mouse Trap Farms. The right flank was pushed back and end up near Forward Cottage and Cross Roads Fm.

I'll leave you to make your own mind up over this.

Regards

Annette

[Aurel Sercu]

Annette,

I agree.

I'm afraid I have to repeat that I tend to be very sceptical about this identification. (An opinion I have already expressed in the thread 'Five old soldiers found'.)

However, I have to admit that I have not had a close look yet at that 26 Oct. 1917 date, when the 5/N.F. allegedly were where the excavations of the past months took place (opposite where now Track X Cemetery is).

But I think that I know some things about 24 May 1915 in that area. Certainly enough to see that this exact excavation site is inextricably linked to 5/N.F. The map shows that the battalion moved on to or withdrew from Mouse Trap Farm passing along the excavation site.

And I also know that the number of casualties on that day according to the War Diaries are high enough to assume that many of them remained there :

A Company : O.R. 3 killed, 12 missing

B Company : 2 officiers killed ; O.R. 5 killed, 13 missing

C Company : O.R. 5 killed ; 13 missing

D company : 1 officer killed, 2 missing ; 5 killed ; 123 (!) missing

I know this is not really consistent with SDGW (from memory : approx. 50 on 24-25 May), but we know there are reasons to explain the discrepancy.

But maybe I overlooked something, making it obvious that the found remains were indeed the soldier whose name was mentioned in the media... Experts no doubt will have conclusive evidence... If so : my apologies.

Aurel

[Bob Coulson]

The Daily Mail article yesterday stated that William Storey was the only 5th NF man that that was missing and could have been in that area on Oct 26th.

Quite a sweeping statement I felt.

Private John Young Taylor of the same battalion was also "missing" that day and his body never recovered, he is the great uncle of a mate of mine and his name is remembered at Tyne Cot.

I do feel they are jumping the gun and just looking to pin a name on the man to get the matter out of the way.

Bob.

[Martin B]

Typical Daily Mail .............

[Max]

It could be that the body was found with intact steel helmet, discounting the May, 1915 theory. Just a thought.

Andy

[Terry Denham]

do feel they are jumping the gun and just looking to pin a name on the man to get the matter out of the way.

Bob

I think it will be more due to the fact that it makes a 'better' story if a name can be attached. They are certainly jumping the gun but they will sell more newspapers if they can twang people's heartstrings with a real person!

Or am I maligning newspapers?????????

[Annette Burgoyne]

Just out of a matter of interest how far is houthulst Forest from the Pilkem Ridge ?.

The remains were found on Pilkem Ridge in south-west Belgium, where 12,000 men [sic] died in one day in 1917 at the start of the third Battle of Ypres

The fight near houthulst Forest in which poor L/Cpl Storey died took place on 26 Oct 1917 not on the opening day of the third Battle of Ypres. Where do they get their facts from.

NEWSPAPERS I never buy them - they're full of ****

Annette

[Aurel Sercu]

Extract from the DAILY MAIL, 11 Nov 2003, p 23.

Article : Footsteps of a hero ; no reporter named - only : Mail Foreign Service

The remains were found on Pilkem Ridge in south-west Belgium, where 12,000 [sic] men died in one day in 1917 at the start of the third Battle of Ypres.

Detective work suggests one of the men was an acting lance-corporal who was among a group hit by a German shell.

He is thought to have been serving with 5th Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers and was 26 when he died as his unit attacked enemy positions at Houthulst Forest, five miles from Ypres. [Actually, Houthulst forest is 6 miles from the excavation site, and 7.5 from Ypres.]

British battlefield historian Peter Barton said: "I was there when the remains - a jumble of bones, some buttons and fragments of uniform - were found three feet beneath the surface.

The clue which helped identify him was a metal shoulder flash with the name of his battalion.

We went through the archives and established that on the day he died 233 men from that unit were listed as missing.

All except two were later found and identified and buried. We eliminated the other man because he was in a different part of the front and wasn't in action on that day."

Just a few remarks

- Maybe, Bob, the Daily Mail article of 19 Nov gave additional (or different) info ?

- Max, indeed, if there had been a steel helmet, discounting the 1915 theory, this would have been a very convincing element. As far as I know no mention of a helmet having been found.

- I think I remember reading or hearing a somewhat different elimination method somewhere. (Newspaper, or this Forum ?) Something like : four men missing that day and as three of them were officers, the shoulder flash can only have been of W.S.

- Of course, in theory, it is possible that on 26 Oct 1917 some men of the 5/Northumberland Fusiliers were back at the exact same spot where that same battalion had been 2 and a half years before (and where they had suffered 40-50 fatal casualties on that 24 May 1915).

- Anybody out there who has the war diaries of 5/N.F. of 26 Oct 1917 ? Houthulst Forest indeed ?

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

Just out of a matter of interest how far is houthulst Forest from the Pilkem Ridge ?.

Annette,

Sorry... What happened is : while I was typing my posting I suddenly lost control (of what I was typing !) and it suddenly flew off, unfinished. And while I was typing the second half, and slightly editing it, you must have read this unfinished first half.

Meanwhile you may have seen the answer to your question : Houthulst Forest is 6 miles from the excavation site on Pilkem Ridge.

If you ask me : what was W.S. doing there while his bn. was 6 miles away, then I have no answer. (Which does not mean of course that there is no answer. That's why I would be interested in the War Diaries 5/N.F. 26 Oct 1917.)

Aurel

[Paul Reed]

Personally, I cannot see that they have the remains of a man killed six miles from where he has been found; battalion areas did not extend that far. If they have any historians involved in this project, then they are obviously not advising properly or are not being listened to. This and the recent TV coverage 'stinks' of something, but am not sure what.

[Will O'Brien]

A question I have is where did the papers get the name?. As I have said before they didn't conjure it out of thin air & I can't imagine one of the journalists trawling through all the missing to find a suitable/possible name. Someone has leaked this surely as I'm not aware of any offical annoucement as yet.

If this is the case - Why? - Usually the powers that be are so careful making sure they get the naming of a rediscovered body correct.

[Max]

A question I have is where did the papers get the name?. As I have said before they didn't conjure it out of thin air & I can't imagine one of the journalists trawling through all the missing to find a suitable/possible name.

Will, I think you have made a very valid point. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that they are absolutely sure of the identity. Does anyone know if a next of kin has been found, and if so was a DNA test possible?

Andy

[john w.]

From my knowledge of Aurel and the Diggers and the Forgotten Battlefield, few if any have ever been identified, except for regiments.

True Paul it stinks, but then this happens sometimes, but the truth will out in the end when some take up the challenge and doggedly research for the real truth.

John

[Aurel Sercu]

John, Paul, Max, Will, Terry,

Some attempts to reply to the things you point to.

- It is true that we (the Diggers) were a little 'envious'. We found 180 remains in the past 5-6 years ; only one identified ! I have spent many dozens of hours to get to an ID in some cases. (Though this is not our job !) Unsuccessfully. And then 7 remains are found elsewhere near Ypres, and for 2 of them : "Bingo ! An ID !"

But of course : why not ?...

- Yes, I suppose "they" must be very sure of their case. Maybe they are, and maybe they have arguments that we haven't heard of yet. And yet, I know I am not the only one who is sceptical. But let it be clear : if the fallen soldiers can be identified, I will rejoice at it.

- I don't know if next-of-kin have been found or contacted. But I know they should. This is an absolute priority. And : before (!) an announcement (official or non-official) is made ! And some Forum members know that for me in some other research I am doing this priority is imperative. (The Daily Mail : "It's up to the MoD to trace his descendants." I suppose this is indeed the normal procedure. One day when we (the Diggers) were very close, we were informed that contacting next-of-kin had to be done through official channels. Now I understand.)

- As far as I know CWGC Ypres has not come forward with an official announcement and ID. And I know (and understand) that they are very cautious about these things. (And : have to be !)

- DNA tests ? Not that I know. And : DNA tests are not a common practice for the CWGC. (Our team almost 2 years ago found a Canadian / British soldier, and there were DNA tests, but this was not a CWGC initiative, but more or less ours.)

- "Where did the papers get the name ?" Of course, it was not the papers who did the ID-research ! "Who leaked ?". I suppose the answer is simple : the historian named in the Daily Mail ? Besides, that a fallen soldier had been found on Pilkem Ridge and was identified, was known here weeks before Remembrance Day ! And I suppose his ID too. But of course, Remembrance Day (understandably) is a very suitable period for such things...

- Does this "stink" (Paul) ? Wait and smell...

- Terry, that newspapers know that they will "sell more when they can twang people's heart strings with a real person" ? Of course ! Let me tell you an anecdote. (Though anecdotes are amusing, and this is ... shameful.)

Last year, in March, a few days before The Forgotten Battlefield was to be broadcast (BBC, March 2002) I was contacted by a UK tabloid journalist. He had seen in a serious paper that the programme would show the finding of a Royal Welsh Fusilier at Boezinge.

His question : "Is it possible that this man fell on 31 July 1917, Battle of Pilkem Ridge ?"

My reply : "Yes, but he may have fallen on any day between the beginning of the year and 31 July 1917, for that is the period the RWF were here on the Boezinge site."

Tabloid journalist : "OK, but is it "possible" that he died on 31-7-1917 ?"

I : "Yes, but it is also possible that he died on any day between ..."

And this "conversation" was repeated a couple of times.

Afterwards I found that the journalist then contacted someone in a Welsh Museum with the question : "Give me a biography and photo of a Welsh soldier fallen in Boezinge on 31 July 1917."

I suppose I need not tell you what the article in that tabloid was one or two days later ? Yes, with photo + name ! I do not know if the next-of-kin had been informed about this "ID"... ("Your grandad / greatuncle was found at Boezinge !")

Aurel