Understanding Alfred Payne's MIC

[nutthatch]

Hi, I am a complete novice when it comes to understanding Medal Cards and would appreciate any help you guys can give me with the attached MIC for ALFRED PAYNE, my wife’s grandfather.

1. It looks as if Alfred served in three different regiments, South Wales Borderers, Royal Welsh Fusiliers and The Corps of Dragoons. Am I right in this? Why would this have been the case and would he have transferred voluntarily or would it have been forced.

2. Can I tell anything from his regimental numbers? I thought that in later years the number gave some indication of the battalion he served in and whether he was a territorial or regular.

3. It appears from the remarks box that he forfeited his medals because he deserted in 1920. Would he have received his medals by then? Can I assume that because it doesn’t say “returned” against them that he didn’t send them back?

4. How do I interpret the medal references and find the correct medal rolls? Which of his regiments would have issued them? Was it the first or last listed? Or I suppose the regiment he was serving in when the war ended?

5. Am I correct in assuming that because he was awarded the Victory and British medals that he served abroad. Does the fact that no theatre of war or no Star or SWB medals are shown that he didn’t see any action.

6. Is there an index to the medal rolls so that I can request the search service from Kew?

7. Do the other code numbers mean anything?

Thanks in anticipation

Richard

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

1}Yes he apparently started in the SWB & transferred to the RWF & then the Cof Dragoons.

2} His number initially indicates a later enlistment,possibly a draftee,probably post 1916.

3}The code ' the side of the Card is a date:~ 9/12/52,& may well indicate when he finally received his Awards.{I doubt he would have already received them by 1920,the majority where being issued in 1921~23 period.}

4}The fact no date is shown is not indicative of non action service,generally ORs MiCs only give details of embarkation & theatre when either of the Stars was earned,ie pre January 1st 1916.so he would have undoubtedly seen action with one or more of his units.

5} The References by the BWM/AVM entries are the Roll page references which are available @ the NA but in the case of BWM/VM are unlikely to give much more if any information.

6}The reference @ the bottom of the card is probably an internal AMO reference concerning the issue of the medals which,the details of have probably been lost in the mists of time sadly.

7}The fact he deserted;post Armistice,probably means that his punishment was no where near as severe as if he had done so a few months earlier.

[Stebie9173]

There are a pair of books on a table at the National Archives that hellp to convert the medal references into a National Archive reference which you can then order to read at the NA.

Very few people have the "Key" to these codes, except for possibly their own area of research.

The issuing Regiment or Corps will be the last one served with, though the Medals will carry the Regiment first served with overseas.

He may have been wounded/sick, transferred for his skills, or even arrived overseas and been moved on immediately to another unit who needed men more than the unit with which he arrived in the theatre of war.

Steve.

[Armoured Farmer]

Richard,

I can't quite make out the reference, is it CC/103 B page 864?

If it is, then it is Cavalry Records Canterbury, which makes sense as this office administered medal rolls for the Corps of Dragoons, A generic term which covers all Dragoon regiment and Dragoon affiliated Yeomanry regments.

Whether the medals were issued is a difficult question. It may record on the Medal roll what happened to them. As HarryBettsMCDCM says, the date 19/12/52 shows that his records were accessed at this time, probably when he or a member of his family made a request for information regarding his military service.

Hugh

[themonsstar]

Hi

The code number is CC/103/B12 page 864 you need file number from the National Archives WO329/7.

[nutthatch]

Thanks Guys

Lots of help here. so now either a trip to Kew or a record search