Guild of Battlefield Guides

[Mark Hone]

Have any Pals joined this organisation? I got hold of a membership form. It seems essentially to be aimed at those who do guiding professionally. It's a good idea in my view, at least in theory, because although I've seen very many superb guides in my time, there do seem to be a few 'quick buck' merchants moving in lately. On avarege I only do one big guided tour a year plus some private specials for friends and family so wonder if it is worth my getting involved.

[ianw]

Mark,

Is there some sort of test or do you simply state the numbers of tours you have led/been involved with. Difficult to evaluate how good a guide someone is. Some people can be loaded with knowledge but completely incapable of enthusiastically communicating it to a group.

I have heard tales of one very well known and brilliant WW1 historian who was dismal at organising comfort stops, refreshments etc - leading to scratch lunches being hastily taken in supermarket car parks etc. How do you evaluate the total abilities of a guide to admit them to the Guild ?

[Hedley Malloch]

Mark and Ian;

See www.battleguides.org for further information.

I have watched this organisation with someone with a professional interest in training and accreditation. I think Ian's point is well made; there are some people who are great at battlefields but poor as guides; on the other hand there are others who are great as guides, but poor on battlefields If you visit their website you will get some idea of the accreditation procedures. These appear a little rough around the edges eg some people being accredited in the morning and acting as assessors in the afternoon and no transparent assessment criteria.

But some of this is inevitable in an embryonic organisation; one cannot apply the standards and practices of a mature fully-fledged professional organisation to them. And they do seem concerned with outcomes and standards rather than recognising time serving. I also agree with Mark; the standards of battlefield guiding are very variable and we should welcome any body concerned to raise standards. So let's recognise where they are coming from and try to support them.

In this spirit can I suggest some points for them to consider?

1. Have they got a clear idea of what is skill specific and what is generic about battlefield guiding? I suspect that the skills of guiding anyone anywhere are quite general, but battlefield knowledge is very specific. If this is the case, then I would develop links with a body which already offers courses in guiding or related activities. Don't waste time rediscovering the wheel. Battlefield knowledge, on the other hand, is quite specific: perhaps they should focus on technical knowledge and field presentation skills? But they need to do both the general and the particular.

2. In this field everything works on reputation so get some accreditation. Link with a college or university (see 1. above); tie in your training to some externally recognised award.

Best of luck

[Paul Reed]

I have heard tales of one very well known and brilliant WW1 historian who was dismal at organising comfort stops, refreshments etc - leading to scratch lunches being hastily taken in supermarket car parks etc.

That is a very harsh judgement on something you have only heard 'tales' about, and unfair to whoever this is. Not in the spirit with which we normally post on this site, either, I would venture.

Given that you yourself have limited experience (any?) of running, leading or organising tours how do you not know this wasn't a necessity caused by circumstance?

On 9th April 1987 the group I had with me either had a choice of having a morning at Arras with a long, leisurely lunch in the town, or going up to Vimy Ridge for the 70th anniversary, meeting CEF veterans, and having lunch in a supermarket car park instead. Which one do you think they chose?

[HERITAGE PLUS]

I have also looked at the possibility of joining this organisation as earlier retirement looks a possibility - and am as yet undecided as to whether it is for me or indeed if I am a suitable candidate for membership.

I agree that for proper accrediation is key to any organisations future and ability to attract members.

I point that I would raise however is that there is a clear distinction between a Tour Guide and a Tour Organiser.

I accept that the same person can fulfill both roles but there are benefits to each role being separately filled. For instance the need not to organise frees up the guide to use his valuable time and expertise to full effect without the call of wider issues.

I shall be watching this topic with interest.

Dave

[Chris_Baker]

That is a very harsh judgement on something you have only heard 'tales' about, and unfair to whoever this is. Not in the spirit with which we normally post on this site, either, I would venture.

I must say I didn't read it that way, Paul. I got the impression ianw was only using it to illustrate the point that an expert of the historical scene and the geography may not be a great organiser of a tour.

[Paul Reed]

I'm happy to read that's how you judge it, but where does this sort of innuendo finish? We've all heard 'tales' (including ones about this Guild), but I suggest that a public place like this is not the location to discuss them. By all means make a general point, and in this case I would broadly agree, but to cite an indivdual (even vaguely) is unfair - particularly when they are unlikely to reply.

[ianw]

Yes, I was trying in my clumsy way to make a general point re. "Horses for Courses" rather than make an attack on any particular individual. If I have caused any offence with what I though to be a very broad and anonymous reference to them, then I regret this. My viewpoint is based on being on the "receiving end" of a number of tours of very variable quality and Guiding quality control - given the substantial costs of many tours - should be an important issue both for providers and consumers.

[genevrac]

I would like to add my support for "The Guild of Battlefield Guides", for many years now there has been no specific organisation bringing battlefield guides together, with the exception of the Western Front Associations and other generic First World War organisations.

As a person living in Ieper and seeing the influx of new tour guides/companies and having heard stories such as:

1) The red tape wrapped around headstones at Essex Farm Cemetery is where soldiers have newly been buried.

2) The 49th Divisional Memorial at Essex Farm Cemetery is where John McCrae got shot.

3) Someone stepping down from a coach at St George's Church and pointing to the stone arch by the side of St Martins Cathedral and saying "Is that the Menin Gate?"

4) A group leader of a full coach of adults asking how to get to Hill 62 and Tyne Cot cemetery!

On the whole there is a need for some sort of organisation that set's the standard for battlefield guides. I on the other hand have been very lucky with the very first tour company I visited the battlefields with and it is through them that made me keep returning to The Somme & The Ypres Salient, but I would hate to think that I would spend a considerable amount of money to hear incorrect versions of accounts of the First World War - surely we owe all the soldiers more than that!

Genevra

[paul guthrie]

At Hill 60 a tour guide with a bus full of elderly Brits has to follow me to get to Sanctuary Wood! I kid you not.

[burlington]

Isn't there some natural law which regulates the number of guides?

It does seem to me that new guides are coming on the market in ever increasing numbers. Either there is a real market for their 'expert' assistance (no disrespect meant to genuine experts or keen and knowledgable amateurs!) OR other guides are dropping off the end of the production line as it were.

[trenchwalker]

i didnt think that many guides

oh well i will keep trying to get myself into it. hopefully a couple of the weaker ones will die out.

[genevrac]

Sorry Trenchwalker not quite sure what you are trying to say here, but in response to Burlington's previous comment. I do not think that it is a case of "other guides dropping off the production line" so to speak, I think that because of the level of interest in The Great War some people see an opportunity and try to make the most of it, whether it is done for the right reasons one can only guess!

Genevra

[trenchwalker]

dont worry

no iwas just saying i will contiue to live my dream.

and by 2014 who knows.

[Hedley Malloch]

Isn't there some natural law which regulates the number of guides?

Yes - it is called the Law of Supply and Demand. The problem is that for it to work effectively one needs knowledgeable, discerning consumers who know the difference between a good guide and a bad one. In the long-run this will produce a market place in which only expert guides will prosper.

Unfortunately the vast majority of battlefield visitors do not meet this definition; they do not not know their Arras from their Ypres. For this reason it is possible to sell rubbish at high prices. So we need to give consumers a signal that some guides are OK and others are not. Branding (accredited qualifications) are one way this can be done.