lady liberty Posted 16 November , 2006 Share Posted 16 November , 2006 Hello all, im new to the forum and was wandering if any body could help me out, ive down loaded 2 medal cards (i think that's what they are ) from national archives and i have'nt a clue what it means. I suspect the cards may be that of my G-grandfathers Arthur Manuel(l) born c1868, he was killed in WW1 and i know nothing at all about his army career, these are details on cards: Card one: Manuel A.J 197425 Seargant. Royal Garrison Artillery M.I.D L.G 11/6/18 page 6920 Card two: Manuel A,J 53283 Seargant. Royal Horse Artillery M.I.D Lon Gary 21/7/17 page 7449 Im not even sure these two chaps are the same person let alone my G-grandfather... Can any body help me please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ororkep Posted 16 November , 2006 Share Posted 16 November , 2006 Welcome, If you go on the commonwelth war graves website (google CWGC) with your unusual surname it only brings up 13 hits of those killed in the war (two British), none of which unfortunately are these two. There is one artillery man but he turns out to be only 24. This suggests that these two survived the war so its very doubtful they are your G Grandfather. Perhaps if you could offer some more information members may be able to help you, like where was he born, and why you suspect he was in the artillery, what year did he die. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady liberty Posted 16 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 16 November , 2006 Welcome, If you go on the commonwelth war graves website (google CWGC) with your unusual surname it only brings up 13 hits of those killed in the war (two British), none of which unfortunately are these two. There is one artillery man but he turns out to be only 24. This suggests that these two survived the war so its very doubtful they are your G Grandfather. Perhaps if you could offer some more information members may be able to help you, like where was he born, and why you suspect he was in the artillery, what year did he die. Regards Paul Hi Paul, thanks for interest, im not sure where he was born, all i know is he was born c1868, he was killed between 1914 -???? as his youngest son was born 1914 in Manchester. Im clutching at straws regarding his regiment and was going off the unusual surname, i have up- loaded a picture of him on "Uniform, Arms, Insignia, Equipment, Medals" thread, could you take a look please.... libby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted 16 November , 2006 Share Posted 16 November , 2006 his mic. there are two possibilities from the 1901 census , an A an an Ambrose http://www.1901census.nationalarchives.gov...rch_with_locale checked soldiers died and cwgc neither show him, Ambrose James was KIA but a different number same applies to John Alfred. do you have a death certificate or related info as it may be one for Terry D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady liberty Posted 16 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 16 November , 2006 his mic. there are two possibilities from the 1901 census , an A an an Ambrose http://www.1901census.nationalarchives.gov...rch_with_locale checked soldiers died and cwgc neither show him, Ambrose James was KIA but a different number same applies to John Alfred. do you have a death certificate or related info as it may be one for Terry D hi Chaz, this man is a mystery, all i have for him is his marriage cert registered in Manchester in 1911, he is 42 year old widower and states his father to be Jesse Manuell (deceased), his given occupation is Master shoe maker, no mention of his regiment or rank etc. His youngest son was born in Manchester in 1914, so he deffo died between 1914- ???? The only reason i thought the above MICs could be for him was because of the un-usual surname and the initial 'A'. Ive added a photo of him on the Uniform, Insignia, thread. It seems odd that i can find no trace of him in a regiment, MIC or CWGC. i have found a potential Arthur Manuell on 1871/81 census with father named Jesse but he then disappears for 1891/1901 census, im thinking maybe he is away with the army for those census??? Libby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Clay Posted 16 November , 2006 Share Posted 16 November , 2006 (edited) Libby I think this is his birth registration at Bridge, Kent in 1867. Spelt MANUELL. I've found the family (spelt MANUEL) in Chartham, kent in 1871, 1881 and 1891, though Arthur is nowhere to be seen in the '91 census. I can't find any of the family in 1901. The GRO indexes show that Arthur's mother Mary Sarah MANUEL died in 1897 aged 47 and his father Jesse MANUEL died in 1902 aged 59. There is no record of Arthur Manuel(l) in the GRO War Deaths 1914-1921 Index, but as he was 47 at the start of the War, I wonder if he served at all - in WW1 that is - I've now looked at your other thread and it's clear your gt-granddad was a soldier with considerable service, but perhaps, as suggested on the other thread, in the 1880s/1890s. Jim Edited 16 November , 2006 by Jim Clay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady liberty Posted 16 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 16 November , 2006 Libby I think this is his birth registration at Bridge, Kent in 1867. Spelt MANUELL. I've found the family (spelt MANUEL) in Chartham, kent in 1871, 1881 and 1891, though Arthur is nowhere to be seen in the '91 census. I can't find any of the family in 1901. The GRO indexes show that Arthur's mother Mary Sarah MANUEL died in 1897 aged 47 and his father Jesse MANUEL died in 1902 aged 59. There is no record of Arthur Manuel(l) in the GRO War Deaths 1914-1921 Index, but as he was 47 at the start of the War, I wonder if he served at all - in WW1 that is - I've now looked at your other thread and it's clear your gt-granddad was a soldier with considerable service, but perhaps, as suggested on the other thread, in the 1880s/1890s. Jim Hello Jim thanks for you help and suggestions, Yes that is him in census returns, and that is correct birth too, i think ive just found him in 1891 living in Manchester with first wife Emily, image reads he is a Car Driver - Groom, again no mention of him being a soldier Here are the details... 1891 Arthur Mannell Relation: Boarder Where born: Chartham, Kent, England Civil parish: Chorlton on Medlock Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch Town: Manchester County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Registration district: Chorlton Sub-registration district: Chorlton upon Medlock ED, institution, or vessel: 49a Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Mary Hazelton Arthur Mannell Emily Mannell I can see no sign of him or Emily in 1901...what a mystery he is... His marriage ref... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marriages Mar 1886 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>FORD Emily Canterbury 2a 965 HAYWARD Charles Canterbury 2a 965 >>MANUELL Arthur Canterbury 2a 965 Pitcher Sarah Canterbury 2a 965 Is there any reason why a person could not be traced as a soldier??? Libby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Clay Posted 16 November , 2006 Share Posted 16 November , 2006 Is there any reason why a person could not be traced as a soldier??? Libby Good hunting to find him on the 1891! I thought the 1886 marriage, being registered in Canterbury, was a likely one, even though he was only about 19, but obviously I didn't know which of the 2 ladies on that page he married. If he joined the Army in the 1890s, it's likely he was overseas, maybe S Africa, at the time of the 1901 census, and thus wasn't enumerated. Have you found out when Emily died yet? Regards Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady liberty Posted 16 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 16 November , 2006 Libby Good hunting to find him on the 1891! I thought the 1886 marriage, being registered in Canterbury, was a likely one, even though he was only about 19, but obviously I didn't know which of the 2 ladies on that page he married. If he joined the Army in the 1890s, it's likely he was overseas, maybe S Africa, at the time of the 1901 census, and thus wasn't enumerated. Have you found out when Emily died yet? Regards Jim Hi Jim, thanks again for your reply, i have found Emily's death registered in Prestwich which was a district in Manchester the same area i found them in 1891, he then re-marries 5/6 months later in same year and district. Deaths Q1 1911 Manuell Emily 42 Prestwich 8d 185 His marriage 5/6 months later Surname First name(s) District Vol Page -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marriages Jun 1911 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>Manuell Arthur Prestwich 8d 752 O'Neill Mary F Prestwich 8d 752 Sarjeant John R B Prestwich 8d 752 His bride was Susannah/Suie Stephenson my G-grandmother. Libby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady liberty Posted 17 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 17 November , 2006 Guys why cant i find any record of his army career??? is this normal, he seems to vanish, could he have used a false name and still be able to enlist?? Libby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted 17 November , 2006 Share Posted 17 November , 2006 Libby, as you have found 'there is more than one way to skin a cat'. chances are as many of us have found , there are variances in spelling of names, letters added or missing, s looks like f, i or l and on and on. possibly he joined up either under an assumed name, alternative name, mothers maiden name, could be for any reason at all. this is the the major problem with paying for NA records etc, as you are unsure which is which , you could pay out more than you need to. Same applies to Army records. As has also been stated , he may have been abroad and joined the foreign army. Another thought is to sit down with a large piece of paper and draw out the familt tree, this will give a clearer picture a couple of generations back and maybe upto you, then, contact the army records themselves. He may well have named his mother, father, brother or sister as next of kin. Not necessarily the obvious, to avoid surprising the wife, in the event ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady liberty Posted 18 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2006 Libby, as you have found 'there is more than one way to skin a cat'. chances are as many of us have found , there are variances in spelling of names, letters added or missing, s looks like f, i or l and on and on. possibly he joined up either under an assumed name, alternative name, mothers maiden name, could be for any reason at all. this is the the major problem with paying for NA records etc, as you are unsure which is which , you could pay out more than you need to. Same applies to Army records. As has also been stated , he may have been abroad and joined the foreign army. Another thought is to sit down with a large piece of paper and draw out the familt tree, this will give a clearer picture a couple of generations back and maybe upto you, then, contact the army records themselves. He may well have named his mother, father, brother or sister as next of kin. Not necessarily the obvious, to avoid surprising the wife, in the event ... Chaz thanks for your honest answer, ive got his family back to 1785 and there is no evidence of army careers in his family, i have recently discovered he possibly commited bigamy around 1891, so im thinking he perhaps entered the forces under a different name, im going to manchester records office this wednesday hoping to shead more light on the situation, . is it possible he could get away with enlisting under a false name, i would have thought he would have to prove who he was??? Libby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted 18 November , 2006 Share Posted 18 November , 2006 the army/services were in need of manpower! some enlisted under false names for :.. getting away from the wife (untraceable for family) getting away from the family ( maybe conciencious objectors, or religion) getting away from the law (crime) being under age avoiding being found after being rejected re joining after desertion and probably a few others as well!! of course nearly forgot.. unintentional name errors, some couldnt read or write so signed with a X it was upto the recruiting staff to fill in name etc, and if spelt wrong the man wouldnt know either. Ive become Wheller, on my works overalls after they originally had Wheeler correct, not to mention Weller Weler Weeler Whelar, mums side were Gleed not Gleeds Gledes Glead Glede Gleede...... then Charles was allways a bugbear at school it even got corrupted to John on a couple of occasions!! just as an idea.. on NA WW1 mic's there are 10 Charles Wheeler (inc variations on middle name) against 33 ones for John Weller 'tis praberly summat tudo wiv the Wiltshire aaacsent my deear.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady liberty Posted 18 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2006 'tis praberly summat tudo wiv the Wiltshire aaacsent my deear.. LOL Chaz, yes i bet it was, im going to try and find him mis-transcribed.... Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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