1/5th Suffolk Regiment on the Helles Memorial

[SFayers]

Hi folks,

I have a bit of a puzzle, and I'd really appreciate your thoughts!

For a long while now I've had an interest in the 1/5th Suffolks as one of my gran's first cousins who served with them was killed in Gallipoli on 21st August 1915, and is commemorated on the Helles Memorial (see my signature).

On his recent trip to Gallipoli Scottie very kindly took some photos of the Suffolk's panel on the memorial for me (many thanks again Scottie!). For interests sake, I checked all the names / entries on the CWGC website and turned up what seem to me some very perculiar facts!

For those of you that aren't aware, the 1/5th Suffolks were involved in a failed attack on Turkish positions on 12th August 1915 (the same action where the Sandringham Company of the Norfolks famously 'disappeared'), and suffered horendous casualties. From the battalion war diary, the entry for the 20th August gives a tally of casualties between 12th and 19th August: "11 officers killed, wounded or missing and 6 gone sick, total 17; other ranks 178 killed, wounded or missing and about as many sick with dysentry"

From the battalion history (and Ray Westlake's book), only 3 men were reported prisoners, and most of the men were presumed to have been killed.

Now here's the first strange bit, from the CWGC entries for those on the memorial, 6 officers were missing / killed on the 12th (a seventh officer killed that day, Major Kendle, has a known grave at Suvla) (this loss of 7 officers matches well with the battalion history), 11 NCO's and men missing / killed on the 12th, and before the 19th a further 3 NCO's and men were missing / killed. Now I'm sure that there was a substantial number wounded who 'made it back' between the 12th and 19th, - but where are the other men? I know of one other private with a known grave at Suvla (there may of course be others I'm not aware of).

The second and strangest bit of all, is that of the men on the memorial no less than 51 NCO's and men (in fact the majority of 1/5th Suffolk men cited on the memorial) were killed on the 21st August (including my gran's cousin) - a time when the battalion was in so-called reserve trenches and subject to shrapnell and sniper fire. Frustratingly, there is no mention of this day's loss in the war diary entry, the date entry simply stating the battalion strength at "12 officers 499 other ranks".

Does this not seem perculiar to anyone? Is it possible there's been a mix-up of dates at some point, and that '21' could be a simple typo of '12'? Were most of these 51 men casualties of the 12th August attack and not the 21st?

Another curious thing, on a much earlier post (see here), KentSuffolk_Regiment posted a newspaper clipping of a poem by his grandfather (a 1/5th Suffolk veteren) citing his brother (Private Frederick Kent) who was killed in action with the battalion on the 12th August - and guess what? Yes - the CWGC have him as being killed on the 21st!

Is there anyway (apart from ordering and paying for 51 death certificates!!) that these dates can be resolved?

Sorry for the painfully long post - but any suggestions would be greatly appreciated - obviously if the dates are wrong they should really be corrected by the CWGC!!

Cheers

Steve

[horatio2]

Not a unique episode of mis-recording at Gallipoli, I fear. There was a similar error with Plymouth Battalion RND casualties during the 25 April landing at Y Beach. [sEE www.cwgc.co.uk under Misleading Records.] The Suffolks' casualty reports were probably compiled when the battalion withdrew to the reserve lines and the date of compilation got taken (later) as date of death. Heat of battle/fog of war caused many such errors in administration.

[SFayers]

Not a unique episode of mis-recording at Gallipoli, I fear. There was a similar error with Plymouth Battalion RND casualties during the 25 April landing at Y Beach. [sEE www.cwgc.co.uk under Misleading Records.] The Suffolks' casualty reports were probably compiled when the battalion withdrew to the reserve lines and the date of compilation got taken (later) as date of death. Heat of battle/fog of war caused many such errors in administration.

Thanks Hoatio2,

I must admit I did wonder that myself - the entries in the battalion's war diary certainly suggest that the casualty list and a muster roll for the battalion were compiled over the 20th and 21st August, but then why would the 11 other NCO's and other ranks (together with the officers) still be recorded as having been killed on the 12th? Perhaps these losses were noted earlier / separately? Most curious!

cheers

Steve

[redescort]

Thanks Hoatio2,

I must admit I did wonder that myself - the entries in the battalion's war diary certainly suggest that the casualty list and a muster roll for the battalion were compiled over the 20th and 21st August, but then why would the 11 other NCO's and other ranks (together with the officers) still be recorded as having been killed on the 12th? Perhaps these losses were noted earlier / separately? Most curious!

cheers

Steve

Steve

I got this from the book The History of the 5th Battalion The Suffolk Regiment by Capt A. FAIR, M.C. and Capt. E. D. WOLTON 1553 Scarff, S. H. Pte. k. in a. 12-8-15 Gallipoli does this help.

[Steve Newman]

This is actually remarkably common and something I put up on a thread sometime earlier but based around a day on the Western Front.

The 12/21 August at Gallipoli is a common one, many of the 'Missing Battalion' are actually recorded as being 21 August casualties. I think a combination of typos and indeed the actual date of death being unknown so therefore all lumped together at a point when the unit is back in reserve counting its losses is far more common than many think. If you have read the war diary and there is no mention of casualties the 21st then its clearly a fairly quite day but the casualty list from SDGW and CWGC show 51 OR casualties is clearly not a quite day and would if accurate have got more than a mention in a war diary.

I think it 99% certain your relation would've been a casualty on August 12, a day of heavy fighting and severe losses.

Regards

Steve

[SFayers]

Steve

I got this from the book The History of the 5th Battalion The Suffolk Regiment by Capt A. FAIR, M.C. and Capt. E. D. WOLTON 1553 Scarff, S. H. Pte. k. in a. 12-8-15 Gallipoli does this help.

Certainly does - and very much as I suspected! Having not seen it myself I didn't realise Fair and Wolton's book gave casualty details. I wonder how many more of the men on the Helles memorial are down as casualties of the 12th August in the Battalion history?

SDGW also has my gran's cousin as kia on 21st August. Trouble is, I doubt if the CWGC would take an entry in the regimental history (it not being 'an official document' as such) as sufficient evidence to correct their dates?

cheers

Steve

[redescort]

Certainly does - and very much as I suspected! Having not seen it myself I didn't realise Fair and Wolton's book gave casualty details. I wonder how many more of the men on the Helles memorial are down as casualties of the 12th August in the Battalion history?

SDGW also has my gran's cousin as kia on 21st August. Trouble is, I doubt if the CWGC would take an entry in the regimental history (it not being 'an official document' as such) as sufficient evidence to correct their dates?

cheers

Steve

Steve I am just working on a list of when and where they died I will post when I have finished sometime this evening.

joatmon

[SFayers]

This is actually remarkably common and something I put up on a thread sometime earlier but based around a day on the Western Front.

The 12/21 August at Gallipoli is a common one, many of the 'Missing Battalion' are actually recorded as being 21 August casualties. I think a combination of typos and indeed the actual date of death being unknown so therefore all lumped together at a point when the unit is back in reserve counting its losses is far more common than many think. If you have read the war diary and there is no mention of casualties the 21st then its clearly a fairly quite day but the casualty list from SDGW and CWGC show 51 OR casualties is clearly not a quite day and would if accurate have got more than a mention in a war diary.

I think it 99% certain your relation would've been a casualty on August 12, a day of heavy fighting and severe losses.

Regards

Steve

Thanks Steve, seems possibly the case then - I guess proving it is another matter entirely!

The problem with the portion of the war diary I have a copy of is that it's pretty limited in the information it contains - for example when mentioning the above casualty lists it doesn't even mention the loss on 12th August of their commanding officer Lt Col Armes!

cheers

Steve

[SFayers]

Steve I am just working on a list of when and where they died I will post when I have finished sometime this evening.

joatmon

Thanks Joatmon!

I'll check with my list of names from the Helles Memorial at work tomorrow!

cheers

Steve

[redescort]

Thanks Joatmon!

I'll check with my list of names from the Helles Memorial at work tomorrow!

cheers

Steve

Steve

This list came from the book THE HISTORY OF THE 1/5TH BATTALION “The Suffolk Regiment”

BY CAPT. A. FAIR, M.C. AND CAPT. E. D. WOLTON and as they were both there I hardly think that they would have got the dates wrong. I read the book a while ago and don't recall any action on the 21st.

Also interesting piece about Major Kendle on this web page.

Robert Hastings KENDLE

Alston, G. K. 2nd Lieut. k. in a. 12/08/1915

Armes, W. M. Lieut.-Col. (T.D.) k. in a. 12/08/1915

Cory, C. W. 2nd Lieut. k. in a. 12/08/1915

Hinnell, T. S. 2nd Lieut. k. in a. 12/08/1915

Kendle, R. H. Major (T.D.) k. in a. 12/08/1915

Ledward, G. W. Capt. k. in a. 12/08/1915

Wolton, O. B. 2nd Lieut. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1997 Aldous, M. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1241 Barnard, C. H. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2208 Bloomfield, F. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2400 Bloomfield, L. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2971 Burroughs, J. V. Cpl. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2500 Butcher, S. L/Cpl. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2329 Challis, V. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2485 Chinery, C. A. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1284 Chisnall, H. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1953 Clarke, H. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2417 Clarke, S. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2698 Crick, F. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

178 Day, G. E. Sergt. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1343 Dearsley, J. L/Cpl. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1563 Dickerson, F Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2221 Dunnett, W. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1287 Emmerson, B. C. Cpl. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1564 Fairweather, P. R. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2630 Finch, S. J. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

240304 Frost, T. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2695 Gardner, H. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1499 Green, J. E. V. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2426 Green, W. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2313 Griggs, H. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2434 Griggs, W. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2291 Hargraves, A. J. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2523 Heam, R. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2099 Hindry, H. Cpl. k. in a. 12/08/1915

984 Hunt, B. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1877 Ince, T. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2416 Keeble, H. J. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1936 Kent, F. J. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1275 Lambert, A. L/Cpl. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1834 Lambert, R. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2176 Lofts, A. E. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

9502 Martin, B. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1346 Martin, H. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1261 Maskell, A. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2995 Middleditch, E. H. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1484 Nunn, H. Pte. d. of w. 12/08/1915

2387 Oliver, G. L/Cpl. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2544 Orbell, H. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2292 Polden, H. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1585 Prentice, F. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2048 Reeman, E. M. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2217 Revans, G. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2425 Rice, H. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2354 Rogers, C. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1553 Scarff, S. H. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2083 Smith, F. W. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1923 Smith, S. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1454 Smith, W. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2828 Snell, E. W. L/Cpl. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2106 Spalding, F. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2801 Spencer, A. L/Cpl. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2079 Steggles, E. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2326 Stiff, G. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1413 Twitchett, G. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1250 Ward, C. B. L/Cpl. k. in a. 12/08/1915

1271 Ward, E. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

468 Wells, A. J. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

2515 Wiggen, J. H. Pte. k in a. 12/08/1915

1808 Willis, G. E. Pte. k. in a. 12/08/1915

Cheers

joatmon

[SFayers]

Hi Joatmon,

Many, many thanks for taking the time to write this - it's very much appreciated! I've just checked through my list of Helles Memorial names - and all those listed by the CWGC as having been killed on the 21st according to the Battalion History were killed on the 12th.

One other thing you might be able to check for me though, according to the CWGC Private 1165 Drake W G (on the Helles Memorial) is also recorded as having been killed on 12th August but isn't on your list - does the Battalion History give a different date for him?

Many thanks again for your help!

Cheers

Steve

[redescort]

Hi Joatmon,

Many, many thanks for taking the time to write this - it's very much appreciated! I've just checked through my list of Helles Memorial names - and all those listed by the CWGC as having been killed on the 21st according to the Battalion History were killed on the 12th.

One other thing you might be able to check for me though, according to the CWGC Private 1165 Drake W G (on the Helles Memorial) is also recorded as having been killed on 12th August but isn't on your list - does the Battalion History give a different date for him?

Many thanks again for your help!

Cheers

Steve

Steve

I show him to have died of his wounds "1165 Drake, W. G. Pte. d. of w. 12/09/15 Gallipoli" I don't know whether he was wounded on the 12th of August or in a later skirmish.

glad to be of help

joatmon

[SFayers]

Steve

I show him to have died of his wounds "1165 Drake, W. G. Pte. d. of w. 12/09/15 Gallipoli" I don't know whether he was wounded on the 12th of August or in a later skirmish.

glad to be of help

joatmon

Thanks again Joatmon,

My mistake, the CWGC does have him as having died on 12th September (couldn't read my own hand written notes!).

cheers

Steve

[Steve Newman]

Its another common error for this period at Gallipoli is that a number of men are shown as died 21/08 rather than kia/dow including I believe some from the 1/5th Norfolks so I wouldn't be att all surprised to see this error continued in other units

Steve

[SFayers]

Its another common error for this period at Gallipoli is that a number of men are shown as died 21/08 rather than kia/dow including I believe some from the 1/5th Norfolks so I wouldn't be att all surprised to see this error continued in other units

Steve

Hi Steve,

I suspect you're probably right. For example, a great uncle of a pal of mine who was with the Royal Scots in Gallipoli, and is commemorated on the Helles Memorial, is simply listed as 'died' (rather than kia or dow) when his date of death is consistent with a major action in which his battalion was involved. It just didn't seem to make sense that someone who 'died' (of course usually taken as death unrelated to combat, such as illness or disease) would have no known grave - so I wonder if this is also a similar clerical error.

Cheers

Steve